[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Rizso]

welcome back the power of Wasteland, Lililana, Hymn and Thoughtseize to its former glory :D

[Klirre]

Hi!

I'm quite new to the forum, but I've been playing Deadguy and competitive legacy for around 6 months now. It all started several years ago when i wanted a BW deck to use among friends and since then I've collected most of the useful cards for the deck.

The reason I'm posting here is that I, like many others, want some feedback on my current list. Since TC was introduced I realised how hard it was to play with hymns etc, so I modified my list more towards DnT. Now with the recent ban the hymns are back in maindeck but I still quite like Thalia, mom and the rest.

My list looks like this:

Creatures (21)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Serra Avenger

Instants/Sorceries (11)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands (21)
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Warmth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

1 Empty SB slot (atm. it's a mindbreak trap, but just 1 is not very efficient)

The board is made for my local meta, which consists of BUG, RUG, DnT, Storm, miracles, Reanimator, Omnitell, Elves, Burn, Patriot and lately some maverick and infect.
Since I'm not a veteran of any kind I lose quite a bit to all of the decks, but somehow it feels that the faster decks like burn and rug are hard to beat. BUG is also a tricky one, since it's attacking me from all directions at once (discard, destroy etc).

The big question for me right now if it's worth keeping the deck in this form, maybe adjust the number of some cards, or modify it completely. The two ways of changing the deck as I see it is either continuing the transition toward mono white DnT or go back to my previous junk-coloured builds using DRS, Decay, maybe sylvan library and so forth.

In which way have you improved your decks? Do you have any opinions about mine?

[Wilkin]

Hmmmm...a hybrid of Death and Taxes and Deadguy. I've always considered building something like that... So your list, 21 lands isn't that much, especially if say you have a Thalia out and you want to cast Council's Judgment.

-Also 21 creatures seems a bit light for an Aether Vial deck. I would suggest taking out the Council's judgment and the Hymns. And maybe move the Thoughtseizes to the board. As for creatures to put in. Flickerwisp and Phyrexian Revoker are 2 good ones. A brimaz as well perhaps.
Curious, you still lose to burn even with Warmth and Absolute Law? Wow. I don't play anything that hateful. Burn still isn't a great matchup for me but I do alright.



With Cruise out of the picture, the meta is kind of what it was just before that. I expect more Deathrites, so I added a Disfigure to the board. Worked out great. I considered having another Zealous Persecution but having another one mana removal is better for the curve. Plus, I play plenty of board wipes anyway.

[Klirre]

Hmmmm...a hybrid of Death and Taxes and Deadguy. I've always considered building something like that... So your list, 21 lands isn't that much, especially if say you have a Thalia out and you want to cast Council's Judgment.

-Also 21 creatures seems a bit light for an Aether Vial deck. I would suggest taking out the Council's judgment and the Hymns. And maybe move the Thoughtseizes to the board. As for creatures to put in. Flickerwisp and Phyrexian Revoker are 2 good ones. A brimaz as well perhaps.
Curious, you still lose to burn even with Warmth and Absolute Law? Wow. I don't play anything that hateful. Burn still isn't a great matchup for me but I do alright.



With Cruise out of the picture, the meta is kind of what it was just before that. I expect more Deathrites, so I added a Disfigure to the board. Worked out great. I considered having another Zealous Persecution but having another one mana removal is better for the curve. Plus, I play plenty of board wipes anyway.

Thanks for your input! I made a preliminary list based on your ideas:

Creatures (26, prev. 21)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Mirran Crusader
*2 Serra Avenger (reduced from 3)
*3 Flickerwisp
*3 Phyrexian Revoker

Instants/Sorceries (4, prev. 11)
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands (23, added two basics)
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard(15)
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Warmth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Containment Priest
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize

I removed the hymns and CJ:s, moved thoughtseizes to SB and removed one Serra Avenger since Flickerwisp has flying. 3 wisps and 3 revokers + 2 basics added to main.

I removed the Sword of Feast and Famine and Grafdigger's Cage from SB since both have similar copies in main or SB (SoFaI and RiP).
I will test this version on cockatrice, and probably buy the cards I need since it's only a couple of revokers and flickerwisps. I decided to keep the burn hate for now, maybe it's just me doing bad decisions while facing the deck :P

[dragonwisdom]

Your dead to combo with this list. I mean if you don't drop Thalia, you just die. And skuller is also too slow to stop combo in legacy

I would dump vial all together and add a few lands

I would not cut hymm and thoughtsieze. I would even add Inquisition in addition. I would put back Council Judgement and perhaps add Vindicate.


If your plan is to feast on fair decks and then beat combo in the board, I can get behind the list, but otherwise I always have a balanced game1 approach.

But everyone has a different strategy.

[Megadeus]

Sculler + Thalia + Revoker ? You have game against combo. Maybe add like 3 Thought seize and you'll be fine. Seize also helps in the match ups against blade decks

[Klirre]

I've still got the seizes in the board but if you'd rather have them in main, what should be moved to SB?

Thanks to everyone for thier input, I had no idea that my deck would get so many comments :)

[dragonwisdom]

I've still got the seizes in the board but if you'd rather have them in main, what should be moved to SB?

Thanks to everyone for thier input, I had no idea that my deck would get so many comments :)

The top 4 combo decks in today's meta
Storm/Belcher, show and tell, Reanimator and Infect


You need to disrupt these decks on turn 1. Remember there are no counterspells in Dead guy, so it is a must to disrupt these decks on turn1. Currently, your deck disrupts them on turn 2 when your on the play and worse if you are on the draw. You could be dead by then or facing an Eldrazi or Griselbrand.

Def Cut sword of fire and ice and 2 flicker wisp for thoughtseize. I would cut aether vial, personally and then add Inquisition. Also 2 karakas is a bit greedy.

If you are not interesting in fighting these decks in gm1 effectively, than concentrate on Delver and it's variants, BUG, RUG, Jeskai Delver, Elves, Death and Taxes

[Klirre]

The top 4 combo decks in today's meta
Storm/Belcher, show and tell, Reanimator and Infect


You need to disrupt these decks on turn 1. Remember there are no counterspells in Dead guy, so it is a must to disrupt these decks on turn1. Currently, your deck disrupts them on turn 2 when your on the play and worse if you are on the draw. You could be dead by then or facing an Eldrazi or Griselbrand.

Def Cut sword of fire and ice and 2 flicker wisp for thoughtseize. I would cut aether vial, personally and then add Inquisition. Also 2 karakas is a bit greedy.

If you are not interesting in fighting these decks in gm1 effectively, than concentrate on Delver and it's variants, BUG, RUG, Jeskai Delver, Elves, Death and Taxes

Ok, thanks for your input. I think I'm going to try out the list I posted and see how things go. I only play in my local game store and I've never been killed T1 by any deck. Sure, no one is playing belcher, which might be one reason why. If I cut vial I'll make room for more discard, but then all my spells are open to counterspells from all the delver decks. a more detailed rundown of the local meta is something like this (last week at least):
Combo (6):
2 Infect
1 Omnitell
2 ANT
1 Elves

Delver/DnT etc (10):
1 DnT
2 RUG
1 Miracles
3 BUG
1 Maverick
1 Green Stompy
1 Patriot

With my current list (further up on this page) I met BUG - loss, Patriot - win, Infect - loss and RUG - loss. The infect match was the one I was closest on winning of the three lost ones.

One last question, how does DnT manage so well against combo? Is it the dedicated mana-denial plan (rishadan port)?

[Mirrislegend]

With the bannings, I'm reverting to a typical Deadguy splash green for Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and SB options. I'm looking for some input in SB stuff.

My SB used to consist of:
3 Choke
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Manriki Gusari
2 Council's Judgement

With Pyromancer no longer running amok, I can probably cut one Persecution. However, it is a one card blowout vs Maverick, DnT, and Elves; swings most aggro matchups (which are rare, but possible); and beats Empty the Warrens hands from combo decks. So I'm loathe to cut more than one.

Anyways, I'm having trouble with BUG primarily. So I'll probably go -1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Mirran Crusader.

Does anyone have any lower CMC SB suggestions or just general advice for handling BUG?

[sdematt]

What's your maindeck like?

Also, Shardless BUG or BUG Delver? I assume since Shardless BUG is back moreso than Delver, you're talking about Shardless. The main problem with Shardless is Tarmogoyf is bigger than all your guys, they have sweepers in the form of Toxic Deluge, and Visions can have them pull very far ahead.

My suggestion is to run the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Feast and Famine. It gets around Goyf and all of their removal, essentially. With SoFF, you swing past EVERY creature in their deck, you can connect, and then untap all your stuff and keep running out more threats.

I'm not sure if you can truly be the grindier control deck than they are, so try to avoid their stuff: Maybe run Tasigur/Baneslayer to blank most of their removal, Lingering Souls is a great way to outgrind them, etc. I'm going to try the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Council's Judgment

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Containment Priest

Thoughtseizes in the main could even just be more removal or something, since 6 pieces of discard should be enough in game 1, and you could always have something come out of the board.


-Matt

[Wilkin]

What's your maindeck like?

Also, Shardless BUG or BUG Delver? I assume since Shardless BUG is back moreso than Delver, you're talking about Shardless. The main problem with Shardless is Tarmogoyf is bigger than all your guys, they have sweepers in the form of Toxic Deluge, and Visions can have them pull very far ahead.

My suggestion is to run the Sword of Fire and Ice and the Sword of Feast and Famine. It gets around Goyf and all of their removal, essentially. With SoFF, you swing past EVERY creature in their deck, you can connect, and then untap all your stuff and keep running out more threats.

I'm not sure if you can truly be the grindier control deck than they are, so try to avoid their stuff: Maybe run Tasigur/Baneslayer to blank most of their removal, Lingering Souls is a great way to outgrind them, etc. I'm going to try the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Council's Judgment

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bayou

SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
SB: 2 Containment Priest

Thoughtseizes in the main could even just be more removal or something, since 6 pieces of discard should be enough in game 1, and you could always have something come out of the board.


-Matt

You may need to tweak the manabase. I only see only one green source, Bayou. Tasigur needs at least another green to activate his ability. Sure, you have Deathrites but you can't always count on them living.

As far as Shardless is concerned. It's a tough matchup. For me it's Lingering Souls and Hero of Bladehold that do the most damage vs them or a turn one Bob. LOL, maybe if they make a white hate bear that's either a Magus of the Moon or Back to Basics effect it would make things better.

[Wilkin]

I play with a Toxic Deluge and find it pretty good at wiping the board vs Shardless BUG. However, since you are going to use it to kill a Tarmogoyf, I can only really recommend playing one.

Never tried Mirran Crusader but I imagine it would be very scary for bug to deal with.

If your meta is infested with Shardless, maybe consider splashing blue in board for Notion Thief? I considered that when Treasure Cruise was running around. It's probably a very janky idea but it does answer Brainstorm, Jacestorming or Visions.

[maharis]

BUG is a tough matchup because they are playing a strong attrition game like us, but they have the additional power of Tarmogoyf and Brainstorm. They are a stronger Hymn deck to boot, and Hymn is really bad for us. However, we do have multiple tools that can help.

1) Wasteland -- these decks are super greedy so Wasteland is great against them. Conversely, we aren't as susceptible to wasteland as a 2 color deck

2) Lingering Souls -- this is a good weapon against their discard, and gives us a way to kill a Delver and/or fly over a TNN/Goyf with equipment

3) Mirran Crusader -- if you have a lot of BUG in your meta, I definitely recommend having a couple of these in your 75 as it forces their hand since they will die to it in a couple turns, especially if you have any equipment out

4) Sword of Feast & Famine -- makes every creature into a Mirran Crusader. Abrupt Decay is a pain, but if they are decaying your sword, other stuff is alive.

5) Tasigur -- a threat that can go toe-to-toe with Goyf. You might never activate his other ability though.

Another thing to note is that these decks tend to be threat-light, running only 12-14 creatures and nothing like Pyromancer, Souls or Stoneforge that pumps out combat value. STP & Liliana can keep their armies at bay. Not letting them have a Deathrite Shaman is paramount (or controlling theirs with ours). Creeping Tar Pit can be a thing, but requires them to tap 4 lands to activate (and we have 4 Wasteland).

Alternatively, you could just have them never draw anything good on camera like Megadeus did.

[BTY]

BUG is a tough matchup because they are playing a strong attrition game like us, but they have the additional power of Tarmogoyf and Brainstorm. They are a stronger Hymn deck to boot, and Hymn is really bad for us. However, we do have multiple tools that can help.

1) Wasteland -- these decks are super greedy so Wasteland is great against them. Conversely, we aren't as susceptible to wasteland as a 2 color deck

2) Lingering Souls -- this is a good weapon against their discard, and gives us a way to kill a Delver and/or fly over a TNN/Goyf with equipment

3) Mirran Crusader -- if you have a lot of BUG in your meta, I definitely recommend having a couple of these in your 75 as it forces their hand since they will die to it in a couple turns, especially if you have any equipment out

4) Sword of Feast & Famine -- makes every creature into a Mirran Crusader. Abrupt Decay is a pain, but if they are decaying your sword, other stuff is alive.

5) Tasigur -- a threat that can go toe-to-toe with Goyf. You might never activate his other ability though.

Another thing to note is that these decks tend to be threat-light, running only 12-14 creatures and nothing like Pyromancer, Souls or Stoneforge that pumps out combat value. STP & Liliana can keep their armies at bay. Not letting them have a Deathrite Shaman is paramount (or controlling theirs with ours). Creeping Tar Pit can be a thing, but requires them to tap 4 lands to activate (and we have 4 Wasteland).

Alternatively, you could just have them never draw anything good on camera like Megadeus did.

If you are just looking for a cheap body to beat/evade tarmogoyf tombstalker seems pretty good, especially if you don't think you will ever activate tasigurs other ability.

[maharis]

If you are just looking for a cheap body to beat/evade tarmogoyf tombstalker seems pretty good, especially if you don't think you will ever activate tasigurs other ability.

Right, Tasigur domes you for slightly less off of Confidant but Tombstalker is probably still better.

I don't think I'd be playing Confidant though... while I'm convinced Lili, Wasteland, and Hymn are back I'm not convinced Bob. Segal might have been right about that even before TC.

[Megadeus]

BUG is a tough matchup because they are playing a strong attrition game like us, but they have the additional power of Tarmogoyf and Brainstorm. They are a stronger Hymn deck to boot, and Hymn is really bad for us. However, we do have multiple tools that can help.

1) Wasteland -- these decks are super greedy so Wasteland is great against them. Conversely, we aren't as susceptible to wasteland as a 2 color deck

2) Lingering Souls -- this is a good weapon against their discard, and gives us a way to kill a Delver and/or fly over a TNN/Goyf with equipment

3) Mirran Crusader -- if you have a lot of BUG in your meta, I definitely recommend having a couple of these in your 75 as it forces their hand since they will die to it in a couple turns, especially if you have any equipment out

4) Sword of Feast & Famine -- makes every creature into a Mirran Crusader. Abrupt Decay is a pain, but if they are decaying your sword, other stuff is alive.

5) Tasigur -- a threat that can go toe-to-toe with Goyf. You might never activate his other ability though.

Another thing to note is that these decks tend to be threat-light, running only 12-14 creatures and nothing like Pyromancer, Souls or Stoneforge that pumps out combat value. STP & Liliana can keep their armies at bay. Not letting them have a Deathrite Shaman is paramount (or controlling theirs with ours). Creeping Tar Pit can be a thing, but requires them to tap 4 lands to activate (and we have 4 Wasteland).

Alternatively, you could just have them never draw anything good on camera like Megadeus did.

Having your opponent draw poorly is a sound strategy that I fully agree with.

That said, I think stalker is a great man against BUG. I haven't played much in a couple of months but what is the meta looking like? I can imagine it being pretty similar to the pre cruise meta for the most part.

[Mirrislegend]

I used to play Goyf in Deadguy and it felt pretty useless, even against BUG.

Rogue thought: Bring in Zealous Persecution out of the SB to counteract their Toxic Deluge?

[tescrin]

I used to play Goyf in Deadguy and it felt pretty useless, even against BUG.

Rogue thought: Bring in Zealous Persecution out of the SB to counteract their Toxic Deluge?

Not worth it IMO. As someone who loves using Deluge, I typically overpay on life by at least 1 (handles almost any pump even remotely playable in legacy.) It'll only work on a given opponent once while you're going to get the benefit of them paying extra life every game for the rest of your life. Equips deal with deluge pretty well if you have multiple (or the right one) since your threats are going to trump theirs (and they deluge'd to catch up/control.) I'd focus on getting equips down over trying to counter deluge.

[sdematt]

Agreed. Beat them with tricky stuff, even Perish could work