Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:
Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.
However I don’t think the half way splashes are good. Double coloured spells are already sketchy in a deck with 5 colourless lands without splashing. 11 sources is decent but still a bit concerning. Relying on 1 dual to cast your delver with hate card seems very sketchy to me.
Three opinions of mine:
You need a very good reason to not play fow and brainstorm in a fair deck. You aren’t playing Thalia, a fast combo, or chalice. Thus the only reason DGA is not just bad Esper stoneblade is a better manabase, which you have lost with this build.
Meddling mage is good but it’s arguably worse in fair mus than Tidehollow Sculler or Kitesail Freebooter and not much better in unfair ones. I don’t think it’s worth the splash just for that card.
Decay is good vs delver, but basics vs Delver are better. Vindicate or Skyclave Apparition are both legacy playables.
I think you should either make the cuts above so you can run basic plains, castle lochwain and prismatic vista.
Or accept you have a sketch manabase and play Esper fair blue (stoneblade/vial/mentor depending on whether your favourite card is sfm or soulherder or mentor) for brainstorm, ponder, force of will which are better than any of your sideboard cards.
I also think that BW is better positioned on current meta (Delver, D&T and Loam decks). What do you think about a "core shell" like:
8 Creatures
4 Dark confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
21 Other spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Hymn to tourach
3 Lingering souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
1 Batterskull
22 Lands
We have 9 flex slots to tune it to the meta (more discard, removal, Opposition agent), etc.
Good to know, I'll check it out.
Thanks – that's quite a compliment.
You could be right. I'll continue testing them in the meantime. I think Meddling Mage is actually really good in the unfair matchups (much better than Sculler/Freebooter would be), but it's possible that that's not the best use of those slots since the unfair matchups aren't all that bad to begin with. And a similar, Dark Rit-able effect in Necromentia is available in-color. Also, I've realized through testing recently that it's not as good against certain fair strategies as I thought it would be (Uro/Punishing Fire/Loam).
Decay is a bit more reasonable, I think, given that Vindicate + Skyclave are both pretty slow. It does make the mana a bit awkward, but hitting Goblin Rabblemaster a turn later or getting your removal Dazed are both pretty bad too. That said, I have had a lot of success with Vindicate in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if I went back in that direction eventually.
What, you mean "I don't wanna play blue" isn't a good enough reason? ;)
More seriously, I do think DGA plays out quite a bit differently than something like Esper stoneblade. Whenever you play cantrips, what you gain in consistency you lose in velocity. DGA starts can often curve out brutally – e.g., thoughtseize into hymn into liliana – whereas fair blue tends to spend the first couple turns sculpting or reacting. Are the tradeoffs worth it to play cantrips? Probably yeah, but important to note that the tradeoff is there and the playstyles end up being quite different as a result.
I've tested Eliminate and Vindicate on Abrupt decay slots and think the green splash is necessary because the most played decks (Grixis, UR Delver and Miracles on my local meta) play 10+ counters.
Green is worth the splash even for just 2 cards: Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library. Having access to Veil of Summer and Choke out of the sideboard is pretty hot, too
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
got a skyclave apparition online. Man, it's expensive. Took out the Murderous Rider for it. So far, I'm liking it. Exiled a Phoenix (the 3/2 flyer for 4 mana) with it. And a goblin in another match. Double white can be hard to get at times but I think it's worth it. Plus, being able to get it back with Liliana, the Last Hope is good.
What is your prefered removal suite?
I'm currently playing 2 Abrupt decay and 1 Anguished Unmaking because I don't play Liliana, the last hope. Do you think the synergie between her and Skyclave apparition is worth? How many copies of each we should play?
Thanks.
I run 2 Vindicate, 1 Skyclave Apparition, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Plague Engineer, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Liliana, the Last Hope.
I think the ability to recur a creature like Skyclave is totally worth it. Only running 1 atm since the double WW isn't the easiest to cast.
Fracture. Not a bad card. The one I'm really thinking about though is Vanishing Verse. A more versatile removal spell imo. It does have some notable weaknesses though and certainly doesn't stack up the the GB duo of Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay.
As was really hoping for a card close to Assassin's Trophy to bring my mana curve down (I play a ton of 3 drops). Verse comes very close but not quite. I may try one in the board though.
What are you wanting to hit with Verse?
I guess here's my train of thought, good or bad:
Fracture:
Pros:
-Hits ANY planeswalker
Cons:
-Doesn't hit creatures, but your STP's do.
Vanishing Verse
Pros:
-Exile vs. Destroy
-Exiles permanents (covers creatures)
Cons:
-Only hits monocoloured
--------
So, I guess what we have to think is, what are we hitting or not?
Vanishing Verse isn't hitting Uro, Fracture will. Verse will hit Goyf/Delver/Hoots/SCM/many creatures, but not Strix/Uro/etc. Verse will hit Marit Lage, Fracture will not.
So, I think there are pros and cons. I think if you're running STP, Fracture may be an interesting inclusion, especially if you're replacing Anguished Unmaking.
Food for thought.
I think there is one main question regarding the new cards. Which permanents commonly played in Legacy can be targeted by each one. Besides creatures (Vanishing verse) and colorless artifacts(Fracture), which planeswalker or enchantments are covered by one and not the other?
Only Teferi, Time raveler played on Miracles maybe?
Colorless isn't considered monocolored, right? That means Karn and Ugin aren't hit by verse?
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"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Essentially the Vanishing Verse would take up a spot in the sideboard. Just as another cheap removal spell (I usually have a 1 or 2 mana spell in that slot). Mostly for creatures, but in this case, Verse could hit a few other annoying things. Like Sylvan Library, etc.
Because there are some notable things it misses, I won't run it main. Unfortunately it's no Abrupt Decay or Assassin's Trophy.
The card I run atm in the board that Verse might replace is Liliana's Triumph. We'll see. Right now Triumph gets the edge over cards such as Path to Exile or Dismember because
1. I want an instant speed was of killing an Emrakul
2. Triumph has the potential of being a 2 for 1 card (If I have a Liliana in play).
But the black white removal cards are getting an upgrade.....just not quite good enough IMO. Would have been elated for a black white Assassin's Trophy. Would be tough saying goodbye to Vindicate though.
I have come around to the idea that vanishing verse doesn’t hit enough. Has anyone tried fracture yet? Between fracture and plow you cover ever single threat in the meta except Klothys, which is very nice in a deck without cantrips.It seems like it is the perfect sideboard card.
Bwangeroo , have you tried silverquill silencer? Or is it still not good enough?
I haven't tried Silverquill Silencer – I don't think it's really what Deadguy wants. It'd basically just be an aggressive beater in an otherwise not very aggressive deck. Especially in a Dark Rit build, you can't afford that many slots with white mana symbols. Plus the two-drop slot is already quite full and I don't think this is good enough to replace any two-drops we already play.
That being said, due in part to limited time I have a tendency to let theorycrafting get in the way of testing, so who knows, it could be good. I spent the longest time avoiding trying Kaya 3, Skyclave, basic Plains and Karakas due to mana considerations, but after having finally tried them I think they're all good.
ETA: I actually wonder if Silverquill Silencer would be good in a more creature-heavy build, featuring Vial, Mother of Runes, Sculler, Thalia. Most of those are humans too, so who knows, maybe stuff like Cavern and Thalia's Lieutenant as well. At that point it's not really Deadguy anymore, but could be an interesting direction.
This list looks incredible...
https://twitter.com/ThrabenU/status/...156866/photo/1
Loving his content, just donated to Phil to get him to play a list I dub Naughty Ale...
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
3 Eater of Days
2 Mother of Runes
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Reanimate
1 Night's Whisper
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hushbringer
4 Strict Proctor
3 Illusionary Mask (Torpor Orb only if Mask is still bugged on MTGO)
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Silent Clearing
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Prismatic Vista
Sideboard (Was put together back when I was playing Enlightened Tutor maindeck):
1 Damping Sphere
1 Deafening Silence
1 Defense Grid
1 Spirit of the Labrynth
1 Chains of Mephistophleles/Leyline of the Void
1 Ratchet Bomb/Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage/Soul Guide Lantern
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity/Seal of Cleansing
1 Phyrexian Revoker/Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Leyline of Sanctity (Or some other card against burn)
1 Nihil Spellbomb/Relic of Progenitus
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Trinisphere/Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst/Tormod's Crypt/Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
Its possible that the list needs more lands, or more disruption, looking forward to seeing how the deck performs.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 05-05-2021 at 12:09 PM.
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