I'll post my list later but it is pretty much control heavy deadguy ale. Elspeth is incredible. Also, cabal therapy is insane with bitterblossom, elspeth and bob.
Whats your point of view over wasteland dark depht or a classic control suited land package that is my speed bump right now
AFAIK, I'm the only person running the Depths/Mage combo in Deadguy. For those that don't like that, I'd suggest putting in 3x Abyssal Persecutor and 3x Cabal Therapy instead. I felt like Wasteland was only great in matches where the opponent was greedy. Most of the time, it was just a minor speed bump in the early game, and totally pointless late. My opinion is that if you're going to try to disrupt your opponent's manabase, you have to dedicate a good portion of the deck to doing so for it to be an effective strategy. If you run 4x Vindicate, Wasteland, and Sinkhole, that's one thing, but less LD than that starts to become pointless.
Here is what im thinking about right now (y im kinda interested in this thread now, congratulations to esskay :D )
As u can see, its too much.
To be precise its 62 Cards :)
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vindicate
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
8 Swamp
2 Plains
Some Notes:
Duress over Thoughtseize because creatures should be no problem regarding that i have innocent blood, gatekeeper and vindicate
Stoneforge as a 3 off, cause i only could make room for 3 equippments....maybe i make a mistake here ;)
Elspeth....well i kinda asked myself looking at her "it feels like a bitterblossom, a vulnerable bitterblossom"....that can pull tricks MAYBE... im very unsure if she is needed (yy her ulti is good, but hey, it takes an eternity...)
3 Wasteland, because i dont go LandDestruction but rather need to have an answer on some tool-lands.
It may sound stupid, but i think about if its possible to get the list without duals (so no wasteland can hit me, i just LOVE how my TheGate can avoid that ;) )
Give me some feedback, rant my decisions :)
(PS: first time for me to participate in any deadguy-discussion / thinking process , so dont be too hard on me)
At first glance, i must say the list appeals to my eye though
i think it's simply impossible running 4 persecutor thaught i know its a good card i did played it a while ago and it serve me great but i was running dark ritual at the time without it you will most likely winning or losing with some in your hand
and for what i know of bitterblossom, i would always use the whole playset its giving you the game againts control
this is my list so far tell me about it
creature 14
4 dark confidant
4 stoneforger mistyc
3 vampire nighthawk
3 gatekeeper of malakir
disrupt 17
4 swords to plowshare
4 thoughseize
4 hymn to tourach
2 gerrads verdict
3 vindicate
spell 7
4 bitterblossom
1 solas
1 sofi
1 jitte
land mana 22
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
7 fetch
2 bojuka bog
4 swamp
1 plain
sideboard
3 extirpate
3 perish
2 pithing needle
2 doom blade
2 bojuka bog
3 elspeth
in this build im running wasteland, i actualy like wasteland with vindicate and extirpate in board it can give you game. but i agree
with EssKay taught
whitout dark ritual to explode wasteland seems a bit pointless and you always need to see that second land so most of the game you have to forget about disrrupting your opponant mana and if you do it and he still drop a land at is turn your just screwd most of the time
the bojuka bog seem somehow bizzare i guess but i like them againts so many deck this comes out of nowhere and screw their plan' maybe i like them bcause they didnt fuck me over well in that case further testing are required
i gotta say that i like that abyssal persecutor but dont find spot in the board to play them, but i think i would run only 2 of them you never wanna get stuck with 2 in your hand anyway 2 seems like the right number . ho and by the way i dont think you really need a sacrifice outlet with the persecutor i was running it without anything like cabal therapy and i never lost a game with it in play its just almost impossible for your opponant to win over an abyssal when hes in nega
so im thinking right now to cut the wasteland putting land (bojuka bog maybe? i dont know)and maybe add a couple of abyssal persecutor or try some elspeth in the main board
I'll be back
I dont understand your point against Persecutor. He is good even without Dark Ritual (look @ TheGate).....
Wasteland btw doesnt ONLY serve a manadenial plan, its also nice versus some tool lands. Imo Wasteland is no "4 or nothing", you can perfectly play 3 and be sure to draw one along the first 3 turns... which should be enough to take care of e.g. Maze of Ith, Tabernacle or w/e else :)
If we´d go LandDestruction, you´d had to add Sinkhole anyway, but we are not just because we play Wastelands
Last edited by sporenfrosch1411; 08-17-2010 at 07:15 AM.
Does Bob eat your heart out in that list?Originally Posted by sporenfrosch1411
Since i have Jitte, Nighthawk and SoLaS for lifegain and enuff stuff to get rid of him (if i ever want to) -> nope, he is fine, though i cant deny he can hurt A LOT.
But hey, what 2 Cards would you cut to go down on 60 :) ?
I would consider cutting the following:
Elspeth/Persecutor: you really don't want 6 cards at cmc 4. The double white in Elspeth's cost is going to be a pain to manage, but she is really good. Even without her I'd drop to 3 Persecutors.
Stoneforge: Yeah she's a great utility/card advantage creature, but 3 is overkill because she isn't really a threat on her own, run 2 max
Vindicate: 3 has been working well for me. It's an answer to everything, but a slow, expensive answer. I generally only need it to pop annoying enchantments or plainswalkers.
Also, I would try to find room for StP in there. In transitioning from the Gate, you've dropped Deathmark, and in my opinion having a cmc1 removal spell is essential to surviving the initial onslaught of fast aggro.
Finally, Bojuka Bog in the main seems bad. You have no way to tutor it up, can't fetch it, and have access to much better graveyard hate for your sideboard. Leyline of the Void is practically a free pass through any round against Dredge, Lands, Aggro Loam, etc. that you can afford to lose game 1.
What about decklists running no Wasteland?
I've found this recent decklist that won a smaller tourney: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=37411
It has no Wastelands. Any reason for that?
Read the last couple pages of this thread, posts like http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post481404 should help you out
Yeah, 3 Vindicate should be fine. Also, 4 Persecutor seems way too high.
SoLS could be Basilisk Collar. Basilisk Collar with Elspeth and Bitterblossom is nuts in my testing. Jitte and Collar are best with Bitterblossom imo. I run 4 BB though, it's just that good.
I agree with StP, I run 4 and will never, ever run less.
I agree that it would be nice to fit Elspeth in here, but I think the double white is too much of a problem. Resolving her against mana denial decks is difficult.
Stoneforge Mystic is the MVP of the deck and I would run no less than four. It is a threat because it grabs equipment and essentailly turns your entire team into potential threats. Often times, whether I win or lose with this deck depends on whether or not I drew a Mystic.
I go with Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate, both with four copies. The removal that they provide is too good.
One underrated cards that I've been impressed with lately is Tidehollow Sculler. It significantly improves your combo matchup. It's also outstanding against any deck that doesn't run a ton of spot removal (like Zoo). It's strong against Control and Merfolk. It's also powerful if you draw multiple of them and it picks up equipment nicely.
wow this is nice to see some action in that thread
I will totally test a version without wasteland gatekeeper seems way more powerfull and abysssal and elspeth seem way more playable too.By the way why not a 2|2 split 6 spoell with cmc 4 is too much but 4 seems okay
The fact that now we can see path to exiled in the sideboard againts zoo tribal (gobbos and fishman) seems very powerfull.
In my older list i was playing the colar and it was absolutly nuts againts reanimator but i dont see the point now that reanimator is dead.
Iv'e never like tidehallow sculler thaught i always like things that can get rid of problem now instesd of putting them for later
and as for the combo argumant i will say wich combo? Well maybe not you but since the ban of m tutor i dont see any combo deck in my meta if this situation had to change i will adapt for it in the sideboard but for now i dont think the scullar is such a geat idea
4 stoneforge mistyc is i think a stapler i would never run less than 4 period
ho by the way guys have you seen the spoiler of the sword of body and mind
seems like a new recruit how do you feel about it (it has protection againts tarmogoyf)
You better have pro-goyf, because it is going to be huge. It also comboes very well with Jötun Grunt.
"Want all, lose all."
Do you not have trouble with people blowing up the equipment, leaving you with just an extra 1/2?
hey justin, are you playing with wasteland or not?
this is my major question right now wasteland or not we should do a vote
4 vindicate yeah i get it but do you stomp land often with it or not ?
cause if yes then wasteland seems good paired with vindicate, the fact is if you c an screw your opponent the turn he miss a land drop well wasteland give you game but againts tribal aggro or 2 color or eaven 1 color deck wsteland is just a colorless source wich is not good
for myself i like wasteland give me game quite often but the deck curve at 2 and if we let wasteland down we have new path open for us elspeth or abyssal that help the control and the aggro matchup for the second one
we need to clear the mana source wasteland or not that is the question it would be awsome if all the people who are interested by this thread vote and give the pros and the cons of it
so people wasteland or not???
and also sword of body and mind playable for you??? and why
sorry for the double posting but i forgot a major quetion: how many land would you play and why and what is you ideal curve???
Sword of Body and Mind is a nice option to add as a one-off that can be fetched via Stoneforge Mystic. Prot:green (goyf, KotR) and Prot:blue (merfolk) is not bad imo.
I also would not underestimate the power of getting 2/2 Bears for every hit the opponent takes. It improves your board position while u mill 10 cards - which is not to be underestimated as well. If not for the bears, i think the sword would be too weak, but getting the sword on any kind of evasive creatures is a huge problem for some decks. You are more variable with the choice u fetch, thinking of all 3 swords and 1 jitte, you have a really nice toolbox variety. I think its a nice addition, and i would play it.
Vindicate is a 100% must play imo. Whether you play 3 or 4 kinda depends on your meta i guess. Vindicate IS slow, cause of its 2colored 3casting cost. Still i would never consider going below 3 because it is an answer to almost everything that hits the board.
Wasteland.....hm....sure it destabilizes your manabase, but it can screw your opponent. I would allways see the fourth Wasteland as a spell, while the 3 others i count to my landcount (e.g: you play 21 Lands, 4 of which are wasteland, so i would call it 20 Lands - just a mindgame ;) )
Especially with Vindicate i would not cut all wastelands.
When we look at the Decks to Beat (in general, nothing too meta-like) we can assume that a wasteland is very nice except versus Merfolk (and Vial-Goblins). I would much rather add a fetchie or two to stabilize the manabase before i´d cut wasteland below 3.
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