I wouldn't. Just make sure you have your SFMs, discard, Lilys, and Plows handy and you should be fine. They aren't a deck that's worth sideboard space and my experience has been that if you run a couple of basics/fetches and play well then you'll eek out your wins at a 60/40 or so. Make sure to plow your own guys if one is big and you're teetering and make sure that Lily/Jitte/Discard all get the nod. Play creatures in a way that makes them *need* to kill them as well. Early DRS, Sculler, SFM->BSK, whatever you need so they waste cards on the wrong targets.Originally Posted by Wilkin
I've also found that they're running less PoP's because the meta got messed up during Cruise and newbs are probably dealing with too much conflicting information.
A lot of hostility. Jeesh. I would not be surprised if Wilikin* has better Elves match up. He plays cards like Shriekmaw if I remember correctly. I play a much leaner list since Invitationals are often more combo and miracles heavy. As I said, depends a lot on your list.
Could you please elaborate? I find that my dudes carrying SoFI get removed consistently and Liliana doesn't matter when they're playing off the top of their deck anyways. It's a rough matchup for me.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
You need SoLaS ideally, and Liliana against good players tends to be too late most of the time.
-Matt
Warmth is great against burn
Hello all,
here is my current list based on cards I actually own, it is far from optimal:
main:
4x stoneforge
4x confidant
3x tidehollow sculler
2x mirran crusader
3x mother of runes
3x lingering souls
2x elspeth, knight errant
3x inquisition of kozilek
3x hymn to tourach
4x swords to plow
2x disfigure
1x zealous persecution
1x vindicate
1x jitte
1x batterskull
3x chrome mox
2x plains
2x swamp
4x marsh flats
4x scrubland
4x wasteland
1x urborg
3x windswept heath
sb:
3x helm of obedience
4x dark ritual
2x rest in peace
4x leyline of the void
2x enlightened tutor
I would like to hear your advices for the BW list.
Now I have feeling that my list is worse death and taxes list.
My long future plan is to cut moxes, add 1x bayou (actually dont have any) and 1x savannah (have two) and play deathrites instead. Is there any reason to play moxes over deathrites? Is it possible to play deathrites without any bayou?
I also would like to purchase 3 lilianas and play them over elspeths. Maybe council over vindicate too.
Thanks.
Last edited by datanaga; 02-13-2015 at 07:34 AM.
I would play phyrexian crusader over mirran any day in your list. It will improve drastically your matchup against Red & White decks.
Even more if you are planning to go deeper in "black" with Lili's.
I know double strike is nothing to laugh about. But one shall not scorn at being bolt + plow + punish proof, as well.
It would mainly depend on your meta.
Sorry, I dont get it. How is phyrexian crusader good against RW decks? Which decks do you exactly mean? Burn, DnT, UWR stoneblade/delver, Boros burn, UWR miracles? To win with poison counters with power 2 creature is slow as hell. I would never play this creature in my list. Btw I play mothers to save my creatures from bolts and plows.
Did not you mean phyrexian revoker? It makes much more sense to me:)
My tournament meta is pretty wide, lot of tier 1 decks. ANT, DnT, various delvers, elves, some miracles too...
I have never played this deck in real tournament yet, because is unfinished in my eyes, I only tested it on cockatrice where BUG delver is really popular now.
I agree. Since you play Mom, playing Mirran Crusader is fine.
So your list has Chrome Mox and has a ton of GY hate in the board. Love it already. lol. You could always have a miser Karakas in the main. Also maybe instead of the Vindicate you could have an Oblivion Ring as you have Enlightened Tutors in board.
You could always have Deathrites and Chrome Mox. I do. I love it and you have even more things to cast turn 1 like Sculler. You don't need the Bayou but I would highly recommend playing one if you do play Deathrites. It's something to consider (having Deathrites) since you have quite a few 4 drops. Since Treasure Cruise is gone it's back to the attrition wasteland, stifle etc. games.
Other than that, list seems fine to me. I've always wanted to put in the Helm kill in the board, let me know how it goes.
Looking for some feedback on this WBg list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Monastary Mentor
4 Throughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
SB wasn't tested and is purely speculative right now but the Green cards being considered are G. Teeg, Choke with E-tutor, and Krosan Grip.
The main looked ok to me on paper but we ran a few games and it felt...well, awful. It always seemed like I was drawing awkward combinations of cards. I don't know if it is because of poor deck design, inexperience (never played this archetype before), or too small a sample size. The deck went 0-6 against RUG and 2-1 against Miracles in pre-board games. Even the few games I won were like "how did I win this game?".
The Monastary Mentor is probably a bit dodgy, which I suspected going in, he's quite slow and when he's unopposed on the board you're often hellbent. Unfortunately I can't find another "bomb"-y card to fit in this slot. I tried Mirran Crusader (great man) but hitting WW was difficult. Other cards I'm considering here are Stillmoon Cavalier, Siege Rhino (Rhinos in every format?) or just more Souls. Maybe I'm undervaluing Souls but I want to play RIP in the board.
The mana in general doesn't seem great with the Green splash so maybe that has to go, it's sometimes hard to get Abrupt Decay mana and I ditched the 4th Wasteland for Urborg because I wasn't getting enough Black mana. Abrupt Decay seems too good not to play, though I know a lot of people here aren't.
I hope this doesn't come across as too scatterbrained or salty but I would appreciate any advice here.
If you're hellbent but want tokens, brimaz, king of oreskos could be to your liking.
Thanks for advice. Yesteday I played this deck at small LGS tournament (14 people) for the first time, with these changes:
mb:
-1 mirran crusader
-1 vindicate
-1 inquisiton of kozilek
+ 1 oblivion ring
+ 1 tidehollow sculler
+ 1 polluted delta
sb:
-1 dark ritual
+ 1 zealous persecution
finished 3:1
lose to ANT, win against JUND, manaless dredge (mulligan to leyline is autowin) and RUG delver
about sb helm combo) my maindeck is favorable against fair decks, but there are many combo decks in my meta, in G2 and G3 I want to side out a lot of cards (mothers, swords, disfigures, elspeths, lingering souls etc.) so I prefer this type of combo sb now, still not sure about it and need more testing, maybe it is more cute than useful, for example I did not complete it yesterday, but RIP alone is very good against many decks.
I use Batterskull as my bomb of choice. You could consider playing an extra one (or two) for this purpose. Also, Lingering Souls can carry the RUG matchups on its own, and turn your lonely equipments into game winners in the late game. So for your list, I would go -2 Monastery Mentor, +1 Batterskull, +1 Lingering Souls.
If you need a bomb to clock your opponent, rather than just control the board, Hero of Bladehold is a faster and Abrupt-Decay-proof Brimaz.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
I really wanna figure out a shell for Monastery Mentor. I already like putting Sensei's Top in Deadguy Ale, so he seems like the perfect fit for my kind of deck. So far I have this list and wanna try and tighten it up a bit.
Lands (21)
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
Instants/Sorceries (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creatures (17)
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Things that I am suspect of:
-Gitaxian Probe, seems sweet with Cabal Therapy and Mentor but might be too cute. Worth noting it helps fuel delving Tasigur as well.
-Tasigur, powerful card however probably never going to activate it's ability. Really just running it as a black 1 mana Tarmagoyf, bit of a nonbo with Bob though
-Discard numbers, figure with 4 Probe and 3 Mentor I want to take advantage of the synergy with Therapy, but not sure about 3 Hymns and 2 IoK (IoK over Thoughtseize since I'm taking a lot of damage from Probe already)
-Wasteland, obviously an insanely good card but I have no real way to take advantage of the mana screw without Daze, Port, Thalia etc. It's also good with Tasigur, but maybe I just want more secure mana. Possibly mess with some Ancient Tomb/Urborg/Man lands for quick Mentors and Tasigurs. Also I don't have 4 Wastelands so I certainly wouldn't be unhappy about losing them for something else.
Gonna run the list through some games online see how I feel, haven't actually jammed any yet but I'm liking the way it looks so far.
Ive been trying mentor with an Alesha shell in Dega and so far it hasnt been terrible. Its not crazy fast like in a probe shell, but the recursion is nice.
This is what I ended up with after spending a few hours jamming games.
Lands (21)
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
Instants/Sorceries (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creatures (17)
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution
Angler turned out to be better than Tasigur since I can't really ever reliably activate Tasigur, plus the Angler eats other Tasigurs and Goyfs so that was pretty sweet, basically just acted as a black Goyf. I got to combo off with Mentor and Tops a few time and it was fucking insane. I had 5 mana made a Mentor and 2 dudes, then next turn attacked for 19 damage (7/7, and 2 6/6s). Probes were insane when I had Therapy as expected, but were whatever when I didn't. Never really came up with Mentor. Still not sure about the discard suite, Hymn is really powerful but the 2 drop slot is so crowded. IoK was good, but I think it's just because I wanted more 1 mana things to do. Top was great as always and I was glad to have all of them, it is nice to make this deck less top deck dependent. I kind of wish I had some more spot removal, I really wish I had the option to play Abrupt Decay but I don't really want to have a worse mana base and turn into some junk deck. And as always I sure wish I could play ~8 Deathrite Shamans! (but who doesn't)
I very haphazardly threw the sideboard together and it was fine. I think going forward I might cut the Hymns for the 4th Mentor, since I found myself wanting to find him very often, and for 2 more IoKs. However, it was annoying to get my Mentor Force'd so I might switch back to Thoughtseize though that damage is going to add up. However, in the end I played against a few Grixis decks with Young Pyro and Cabal Therapy and they sure just felt better than what I was doing. That might just be because playing Brainstorm and Ponder is better than playing shitty white and black cards, who knows I'll probably just continue forcing something that is sub par.
I like both Brimaz and Hero but they require WW, which was hard to hit when I was looking to have BB + Green source every game.
I think I will try cutting Hymns for Scullers. Sculler isn't as devastating as Hymn but is still disruption and is a man/can carry a weapon. Furthermore this will make the mana more amenable to a WW creature. I will also look for a spot for the 3rd copy of Souls.
I only finally dropped my Scullers and that's in a *blue shell* I was still running them. They're quite nice. Anything none blue that can run them I think they're worth it. You'll be running SFM and disruption with a Sword is good stuff. They're a little lackluster for D&T/Maverick, but as long as you can CA them out of the game he's quite good in most other MUs; especially if they are low on removal and you're high on threats (deckwise.) E.G. Delver, Combo, and to a degree Shardless and friends. He's horribad against Jund or similar, but what can you do..?
There's a chance he's better in a Maverick shell if you have to deal with Jund, since KotR is such a house against them.
No.
I did mean "Phyrexian crusader" to your question about going deeper in "black". Cutting double W mana costs from your shell should be a starting point.
Save the Mom (that I would actually cut for DRS), phyrexian crusader is not as easy to remove as mirran crusader.
Is it really better to race life point instead of poison counter ?
At the first sight, one could say. Yes ! Definitely. Your opponent play fetches, you will always sneak a couple of damage points through a dark confidant, a SFM, a token, "you name it". But, your legacy opponent can also gain some life during a game 's life :
- you play STP
- your opponent could play some life gaining spells/equip (BSK)
Does legacy general meta is about removing poison counters ? No.
So basically, as much as I do get the point about life vs poison, all in all I would rather have a "hard to remove" creature in my legacy pack (regarding the meta) instead of racing life points at all costs. Why ?
- you'll never know what opponent you are going to face and poison counters will always be far harder to remove than gaining a bunch of life (legacy speaking)
- DGA has NO REACH. Period. Racing life point is more than often, useless, save the combo MU.
- Jitted Crusader could also be a T2 kill (if there were counters on it) or a T3 kills. I wouldn't call that SLOW.
Ok let's now look at phyrexian crusader vs mirran crusader (legacy wise):
1) Mirran hits harder because of the life race
2) Mirran is better with jitte equipped -> more counters on jitte
3) Mirran is better with BSK -> more life gain
4) Mirran can block Tarmo
5) Mirran can block BSK
6) Mirran is immune to decay
7) Mirran is immune to disfigure
8) Mirran is better against combo (life race)
9) Mirran cannot be blocked by green & black creatures
a) Phyrexian is immune to lightning bolt
b) Phyrexian is immune to forked bolt
c) Phyrexian is immune to punishing fire
d) Phyrexian is immune to chain lightning
e) Phyrexian is immune to path to exile and STP
f) Phyrexian is immune to pyroclasm/searing blaze/tarfire/rift bolt
g) Phyrexian can block Thalia
h) Phyrexian cannot be blocked by white and red creatures
Mirran has the better clock. No contest.
Phyrexian has the better immunity. No contest.
What I think:
- Regarding the black path you want to take, phyrexian would be easier to cast because you'll need a blacker mana base to be able to cast liliana.
- You should be playing combo (Helm + LLOV) MD not in the side. A friend of mine used to play the helm + LLOV combo. The combo is better MD. Why ? Because your opponent might anticipate another combo coming from the sideboard (Doomsday, Reanimator) or some anti hate card. You'll catch him harder on G3 by playing a fair deck
- DRS is better than MoM if you are playing the combo MD.
I guess my suggestions are way more documented, now.
In any case, have fun.
Thanks for interesting thoughts. Playing helm MD is something I have never considered, because it seems bit fragile and inconsisten, also relaying on 5 mana spell (helm + activation) is scarry. Maybe it needs full playset of helms, rituals and also some ancient tombs. With helm MD it makes much more sense to play phyrexian crusader over mirran crusader.
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