Glad to hear the Crusader has been working well. It seems like you could really maximize his potential in a build that uses Stoneforge Mystic to dig up equipments. Have you tried this? I would almost say Nighthawk seems strictly better without equipments but I haven't had a chance to test it. Just curious.Originally Posted by boneclub24
After several games with this deck here is my thoughts:
Should we use Sensei's Divining Top?
Althought this card is an awesome mid/late game drop for this deck, it needs at least 2 slots
that this deck currently can't afford. Perhaps it goes against the deck synnergy of putting pressure with
equiped utility creatures.
Why Aether Vial?
I think this is almost a meta decision. This card is great in a Counterbalance meta.
Also, it allows to put pressure on the adversary allowing us to drop creatures and cast disruption spells.
Serra Avenger vs Vampire Nighthawk?
Avenger : A body, fly ability, vigilance. Enters the battefield quickly with vial.
V.Nighthawk: Lifelink and deathtouch plus fly gives an enormously versatility.
In my opinion Vampire wins.
4 Stoneforge Mystic vs 3 Stoneforge Mystic?
With the card advange generated by Mystic I would say 4. I would only use 3 if there's a need to add another
destruction spell (+1 Vindicate or +1 Go for the Throat/Edict).
Mirran Crusader?
If your meta is full of Rock/Dark Horizons sure, add it to your sideboard.
Go for the throat vs Diabolic Edict?
There aren't many creatures currently playing in legacy with shroud/indestructible.
I would say Go for the Throat is an auto include (+2 Go for the Throat -2 Diabolic Edict).
Worst matchups?
Every deck that uses Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives or Counterbalance is a serious threat.
4 Pithing Needle sideboard is essential. Another solution can be adding 2 Inquisition of Kozilek main deck.
@ warai-
IMO, yes to SDT. For me, it's just too powerful with Bob not to be included.
Are you asking why not Aether Vial? I just don't know where we'd make room for it. All of our other card choices just seem better.
I think you're right about Nighthawk over Serra Avenger. The lifelink is huge with all of the fetching, Thoughtseizeing, and peeling we do with Bob.
I'd say 4 Mystics. I'm now convinced that it's about the best top deck we can see.
You may end up being right about the Crusader. But we haven't had enough of a chance to test him yet to definitively say whether or not he's worth it.
Go for the Throat vs. Diabolic Edict? Why run either when we already have StP, Vinicate, and can snag creatures out of hands with Thoughtseize and Hymn? If you're gonna run one though I'm a fan of Go for the Throat.
Hi guys kindly comment on the list I'm planning on testing. My build centers on playing phyrexian crusader. I original was testing it on a BG shell. It was doing well because i could play it on turn one via dark ritual. It was good agaisnt big zoo and bant decks. But was not that satisfied so I'm planning on testing it on a BW shell since it has better probability of attaching an equipment to phyrexian crusader.
20 lands
4 Marsh flats
4 Scrubs
2 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg
1 Karakas
22 Creature
4 Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Stone Forge
3 Gatekeeper of malakir
18 Spell
1 Sofi
1 Sols
1 Jitte
4 STP
3 Totsieze of kozilek
4 thoughtsieze
4 Vindicate
Running Phyrexian Crusader is a horrible strategy unless you plan on dealing nearly 100% of your damage with Infect creatures. Nighthawk, Bob, SFM and Mom very often will deal damage that is completely worthless or more likely Phyrexian Crusader will get some number of poison counters on your opponent and then you will lose the game.
Also, no Hymm to Tourach?
This is the list I am currently running. It is basically Deadgy + Goyf. It has been very solid for me in testing and weekly tournaments.
3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Path to Exile
2 Duress
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mother of Runes
Some card choice explanations:
Knight of the Reliquary, Vampire Nighthawk, etc... were intentionally left off in favor of 2 drops to make Vial more reliable. Nighthawk is probably better than Serra Avenger, but having to take a Vial to 3 and limiting it's use is just not worth it. That being said, I believe that some form of flying is crucial. Squadron Hawk is also being considered and tested.
Sword package: SoFaI has been underperforming for us. If we want to kill creatures, Jitte is better. If we want protection from removal, SoLaS is better. SoFaF is being tested. The idea is Pro-Goyf and untapping to move equipment around is a good thing. This is still being tested as the overlap of Pro-Black is not ideal. SoLaS has been very solid, but it may be that a SoFaI/SoFaF split is correct to cover the most colors. However, losing Pro-White would not be ideal either. I doubt 4 is the correct number of equipment, but that is possible.
3/1 Mother of Runes split. Mom has been amazing in lots of MUs and abysmal in others. This led us to putting one in the board for creature based MUs, but only running 3 for combo and control MUs. It's not terrible against control, but certainly not optimal.
I believe that the inclusion of Goyf is worth it. The mana is not signifcantly impacted as I can run a full set of Wastelands without having mana issues. Vial is a tremendous help here. Green also open you up to good sideboard cards like Teeg and Grip.
Sculler: Just amazing. The ability to curve out with Thoughtseizes into Scullers into equipment has been great.
The sideboard likely needs some work. Teeg, Grip and Plague have all proved very valuable in my local meta. Path is a nod to some of the local Affinity decks that require lots of removal. Duress has been solid, but perhaps IoK would be good too.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
I like your list but have some questions in my mind:
1 - Why no Sword of Fire and Ice main deck?
2 - I suppose you use Vial as a main answer to Countertop decks. But why no Pithing Needle SB?
3 - Adding Tarmogoyf have given you instability with the green mana (wastelanded)?
4 - You only have 4 spells of creature spot removal Main Deck, is it enough for you?
The Sword split is what we're struggling with most right now. 4 might even be the right number just so you always have the right sword for the right situation. All of them have their benefits and limitations.
The sideboard is still fairly up in the air right now. In all likelihood, Needle will go in. We were discussing that last night. The deck is better against CB than I would have thought though. Significant disruption and Vial help a lot.
So far, there has been only one situation where I had to mulligan a hand I wanted to keep but couldn't because of mana. It was a Savannah, Plains, Wasteland hand with Black spells. In general, the mana has not been an issue at all. Vial helps a ton.
It hasn't been an issue so far. Even against creature rush decks like Goblins or Affinity. The combination of Mother, Swords, Mystic and Equipment go a long way to handling creatures. An active Jitte is usually game against those decks.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
IMO there should Vindicates in the mainboard. Without them, a lot of stuff is very difficult to deal with once it hits the table. I also believe that 4 StP + 4 PtE, and 4 Thoughtseize + 2 Iok + 4 Sculler + 2 Duress is slightly excessive.
The sideboard could probably use some gravehate, unless you know it's not needed in your metagame.
What is it you need to kill with Vindicate?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Stuff that come to mind : Jace, Counterbalance, Opposing Equipment, Moat, Humility.
Vindicate is almost never a useless card in this deck.
Just because it isn't useless doesn't mean it should be run. 3 CMC is a lot in a deck that wants to play out a lot of disruption and creatures as well as equip creatures. Jace is fairly easily dealt with through attacks. Counterbalance can be dealt with with Vial. Moat and Humility are pretty rarely run.
I understand that there are targets for Vindicate. I don't think that they necessarily require Vindicate to be run to be dealt with.
So, what is it you need to kill with Vindicate?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
EVERYTHING.
OK, this is a weird question because a lot of decks have good Vindicate targets, many of which are difficult to deal with otherwise. Turn 1-2 discard can of course prevent problematic stuff from hitting the table, but something is bound to get through. Also discard can be a bad topdeck later on, while Vindicate is almost always relevant.
There's also Maelstrom Pulse, which is very good, except when you want to kill an opponent's Tarmogoyf without also killing your own.
@Keiichi
I understand what CorpT is asking... The answer is that everything can be dealt with in other ways, but they're much less versatile, so why bother when you can have Vindicate. It shines in almost every matchup. I don't really see much point in discussing the usefulness of Vindicate any further, since I am certain it is going to devolve into "You can kill Jace by attacking with Mother of Runes!" or "Block KotR 5 times with Phyrexian Crusader and it will die!"
He's not asking what Vindicate is ABLE to kill. He's asking: What will you see across the table that can't be dealt with given what's in his deck, but that MUST be dealt with? "What makes Vindicate a necessary inclusion?", not "What is Vindicate able to kill?".
You don't need to use Vindicate since you have very problematic creatures for your opponent to deal with(Tarmogoyf, equipped big guy). Vindicate is at the top of the curve in this deck and is supposed to help you win the match (clearing the way in order for your creatures pass and give the necessary damage). You have better solutions. Moat/Enchantress is a small percentage of the legacy metagame.
The only good thing about Vindicate is the versatility this card gives you. For example, disturbing your opponent manabase. But it is only an alternative solution since you want to disrupt your opponents hand and kill him.
Basics.
Jace.
Counterbalance.
Creatures.
In short, permanents that are in your way to beer, booty and bounty.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
So I guess we should run force of will as well because there are some spells that get in the way, right?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Do you suggest to ignore the stuff I mentioned or do you suggest to run narrow hate against it?
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Most definitely, assuming that force of will card you speak of is black/white.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Vindicate is far too versatile not to be included, IMO.
The only time I'm ever unhappy to see Vindicate is when I'm sitting at 3 life and peel it with Bob. Which is not very often.
CorpT, you seem pretty against it. Have you tried it?
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