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Thread: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

  1. #2021

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by maximumcarnage View Post
    Vindicate is far too versatile not to be included, IMO.

    The only time I'm ever unhappy to see Vindicate is when I'm sitting at 3 life and peel it with Bob. Which is not very often.

    CorpT, you seem pretty against it. Have you tried it?
    I'm not dead set against it, but in all the games I've played the only time I ever wanted it once when I had sided out my removal and flyers and my opponent sided in predator that I didn't expect. Battled through jace, counter balance, creatures, land, and moat. Put something in vindicate's place and see if you miss it. No one denies it's versatility. I just don't think it is needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
    Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?

  2. #2022
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Is it not one of Deadguy's strongest points, that its so flexible, that you play Cards that have more than one function?

    I love my Vindicate's, cause they grant me the possibility to react game 1 on nearly everything my opponent put against me (Utility-Lands, Planeswalker, Enchantments, things that black traditionally can't handle)

  3. #2023
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    I would argue that playing flexible cards is more of a tradeoff because your deck sacrifices focus, speed, and power for your flexible cards. So, concerning Vindicate, the question becomes "Is the tradeoff he makes by not playing Vindicate an equivalent one? Is he gaining something from not playing Vindicate?" From his replies, I'd definitely say yes. According to him, where he plays, he doesn't need to be reactive in game 1 because his deck can handle anything it encounters out of the decks he normally plays against. Honestly, I love Vindicate, but being proactive and killing your opponent with big creatures seems so much better than having Vindicates when the cards you have no other way of handling are not played.

    CorpT, if you were taking this to a big tournament, would you play Vindicates?

  4. #2024

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida View Post
    I would argue that playing flexible cards is more of a tradeoff because your deck sacrifices focus, speed, and power for your flexible cards. So, concerning Vindicate, the question becomes "Is the tradeoff he makes by not playing Vindicate an equivalent one? Is he gaining something from not playing Vindicate?" From his replies, I'd definitely say yes. According to him, where he plays, he doesn't need to be reactive in game 1 because his deck can handle anything it encounters out of the decks he normally plays against. Honestly, I love Vindicate, but being proactive and killing your opponent with big creatures seems so much better than having Vindicates when the cards you have no other way of handling are not played.

    CorpT, if you were taking this to a big tournament, would you play Vindicates?
    Ok, that's fine. If your local place is such that you don't need Vindicate and you become more of a threat by running something else in its place, great.

    But that's a great question you posed at the end there. I think if you're going to a large, competative tournament where you're likely to run into a wide range of different stuff, I don't know that you can afford to leave behind the versatility that Vindicate provides.

  5. #2025

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I love my Vindicate's, cause they grant me the possibility to react game 1 on nearly everything my opponent put against me (Utility-Lands, Planeswalker, Enchantments, things that black traditionally can't handle)
    Exactly.

  6. #2026

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Come on guys, get serious. Vindicate is one of the main reasons for moving from Suicide Black/MBA to Deadguy, and the only (playable) spell in the game that can hit all types of permanents.

  7. #2027
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by maximumcarnage View Post
    But that's a great question you posed at the end there. I think if you're going to a large, competative tournament where you're likely to run into a wide range of different stuff, I don't know that you can afford to leave behind the versatility that Vindicate provides.
    Why is the versatility that Vindicate provides necessary for this deck? For instance: Would Merfolk play Vindicate if it could? Would Goblins? Zoo? Bant? Some of the answers there are obvious, yes. But all of those decks are capable of performing without Vindicate. So, is it that the aforementioned decks all have something that this deck lacks which needs to be shored up by Vindicate?

  8. #2028

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    I don't see any reason to use Vindicates in a larger tournament, no.

    I really think people need to try it without them. Yes, they are flexible. Yes, you can kill anything with them. Yes, they're the greatest spell ever. But replace them with something else for some games. Try IoK if you're not running a lot of discard. Run Tarmogoyf if you are. See if you miss them. It's very easy to tell if you want Vindicate when you don't have them, but when you have them in your hand, it's hard to know if you need them. If you're playing against a Jace, if you have a Vindicate, you're probably going to use it to blow up Jace. But could you attack Jace as well? Could you ignore Jace and just kill your opponent? If you don't have Vindicate in your deck, you'll probably figure out a way to win without it. Or maybe you stripped it from their hand already because you're playing more disruption now. Or maybe they don't get a chance to play it because you've applied more pressure now.

    Or everyone could just say that it's flexible in a few more posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
    Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?

  9. #2029

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Please, stop trolling. If you really think Vindicate isn't needed in this type of deck, maybe you should think about quitting Magic and go play Pokemon. The arguments that Merfolk, Goblins, Bant, Zoo and so on wouldn't play Vindicate if they could are the biggest pile of nonsense I have read lately. They obviously wouldn't run it cause they have a different play style and strategy. Or am I missing something and Deadguy has started playing Lords, countermagic, big creatures and burn?

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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by CorpT View Post
    If you don't have Vindicate in your deck, you'll probably figure out a way to win without it.
    What if they drop a Moat or Ensnaring Bridge on you? You probably won't win after that. Vindicate is a necessary card for this archetype and removing it would be a huge mistake.

  11. #2031

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bignasty197 View Post
    What if they drop a Moat or Ensnaring Bridge on you? You probably won't win after that. Vindicate is a necessary card for this archetype and removing it would be a huge mistake.
    How many times has that happened to you? And you do play fliers to get around Moat. It's real easy to come up with all sorts of scenarios where your opponent has a Helix Pinnacle in play with 100 counters on it and is going to win during his upkeep unless you draw your Vindicate, but really... how often are you playing against Ensnaring Bridge?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
    Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?

  12. #2032
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Not the point. Vindicate is such a versatile card that you cannot afford to cut it.

  13. #2033

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bignasty197 View Post
    Not the point. Vindicate is such a versatile card that you cannot afford to cut it.
    Got it. Versatility >>>>>>>>> everything. Why not run Desert Twister too? It could be Vindicate 5-8.

    It doesn't matter that you're planning on versatility for decks you've never played against, versatility is the most important thing there is.

    It doesn't matter that you're playing an aggro deck and not a control deck, because versatility is the more important thing.

    Good luck guys. I'm out. Enjoy your versatility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
    Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?

  14. #2034
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNojman View Post
    Please, stop trolling. If you really think Vindicate isn't needed in this type of deck, maybe you should think about quitting Magic and go play Pokemon. The arguments that Merfolk, Goblins, Bant, Zoo and so on wouldn't play Vindicate if they could are the biggest pile of nonsense I have read lately. They obviously wouldn't run it cause they have a different play style and strategy. Or am I missing something and Deadguy has started playing Lords, countermagic, big creatures and burn?
    He's not trolling, nor should he quit Magic. I'm playing a B/W tempo style deck and I'm not running Vindicate either. It's a great card, but in some builds it is just too slow, especially for a deck that relies on tempo to win. I'd rather add more removal, discard, or threats than a 3-cc sorcery

  15. #2035
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by CorpT View Post
    Got it. Versatility >>>>>>>>> everything. Why not run Desert Twister too? It could be Vindicate 5-8.

    It doesn't matter that you're planning on versatility for decks you've never played against, versatility is the most important thing there is.

    It doesn't matter that you're playing an aggro deck and not a control deck, because versatility is the more important thing.

    Good luck guys. I'm out. Enjoy your versatility.
    What is wrong wth versatility? Did you never get into a situation where an opponent dropped something like Solitary confinement or Moat/Bridge (not to mention a random topdecked Goyf) with lethal (or close to it) on your side of the table? That Vindicate in your hand would/could have won you the game, but instead you are left staring at the IoK in your hand. Do you really not feel it's important to have answers to potentially crippling stuff, even in G1? Chalice @ 1, especially T1 on the draw, can be very painful and you can't play a single CMC 1 spell the entire game because you don't have arifact destruction in the entire deck. No way to remove a resolved Cranial Plating? Uphill battle for the rest of the game.

    Sure, you can argue that you can fly over Moat/attack Jace for instance but don't forget that the opponent is playing removal, or at least a way deal with creatures most of the time, so when that Serra Avenger/Nighthawk that you are relying on suddenly meets a Swords/PtE/GftT/Bolt, your path to victory is shut down. A resolved Vindicate would have allowed you to go on as you were.

    Imho, Vindicate is a very important card in this deck and should not get cut. Versatility is also extremely important for a successfull deck.

  16. #2036
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Imho, Vindicate is a very important card in this deck and should not get cut. Versatility is also extremely important for a successfull deck.
    I have to agree with his viewpoint here.

    He's not saying don't ever play vindicate because its a weak card. He's saying vindicate is one of those cards that needs to be evaluated in context (like most cards). Is it worth it "being prepared", being "versatile" to win that 1/100 match against random hoser card like moat etc. Or would you rather have streamlined but less flexible solutions because the majority of the games that vindicate would have been better off as spell x? I hate to say it but: "its a meta call" as in evaluate what vindicate does for you in the matchups you play and decide if its worth it. Most of you seem to think so yes and thats fine, its an awesome card but you can't treat it like some sacred cow that defines the deck and can never ever ever be cut because its "flexible".

    A card having a subjective attribute isn't an argument. Saying that it fulfills a specific function against the matchups you play that another card does not is an arguement.

    Also lots of successful decks are not versatile. Merfolk and storm combo off the top of my head are pretty linear and one dimensional but obviously decks to beat. Goblins, from my laymens perspective, is a powerful card advantage deck but doesn't really appear all that versatile at first glance. Zoo as well. Iuno >.>
    Island, go.

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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    it depends not only on your opponent but on your own deck and playstyle if Vindicate shines, or not.

    My deck for instance is pretty reactive, slow and tries to control and exhaust my opponent. When he's out of gas, I finish him off with equipped creatures, Else... In my Gameplan Vindicate is really important to shut of things like Vial, Else, Bitterblossom... that helps my Opponent to stay in the game. Randomscrew here and there included ;)


    If you are aiming for fast kill, Vindicate is maybe not the way to go (dunno cause I don't play like that^^)

  18. #2038
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Is a swiss army knife a tool that demands a specific situation to be of use?

    I don't think so, that's why I think Vindicate definitely has to be played - at least as a 2-of. I mean, it ALWAYS has targets and it adds a big amount of flexibility to the deck, giving it outs to every permanent your opponent manages to play.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  19. #2039
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Do decks like this perform so poorly in general that Vindicate is essential to the deck's game plan? I don't know about you guys, but for me, it's just an overcosted creature removal spell that often is too expensive to help me, and rarely is the only card I could've played to save me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    Is a swiss army knife a tool that demands a specific situation to be of use?
    When it costs more than every proactive spell in your deck, I would think it requires the specific situation of "giving an out to a certain (heavily played) permanent the deck would otherwise not be able to deal with" to warrant inclusion. People wouldn't play Force of Will if it actually cost five mana, for example. Another example: Do TES decks play Chain of Vapor in the maindeck? Playing cards that don't actively win you the game slow you down unless you know for a fact that you will encounter something that requires interaction from your end. Look at the deck in question that we're debating the merits of playing Vindicate in. The only person here who I would wager has even tried the deck out said himself that he only ever needed Vindicate as a crutch for his shoddy sideboarding. Building your deck to answer everything makes it slow, and his deck was supposed to actually capitalize on disrupting the opponent with better creatures and more speed from Aether Vial. When he asked why he needed to play Vindicate, he was confronted with nothing but "It does everything" responses, and got frustrated and left because no one was willing to give an example of why one needs a card that "does everything" when it's higher on the curve in your deck than every other card in the deck.

    The only good argument for why Vindicate is vital are problem permanents that prevent you from killing your opponent (Not Counterbalance, but Solitary Confinement, Moat, etc). The deck plays proactive disruption, so you are not even dead in the water to your opponent having these cards. The creator of the deck has a knowledge of his metagame that makes him comfortable with conceding to one of those cards resolving, because a very marginal amount of the people in his meta would ever even have those cards. I would even wager that the metagame in a big tournament would be similar to such an extent that my deck would be objectively worse for playing this card in games where my opponent did not resolve a Moat. I would not slow my deck down with this card if I built my deck to be fast. And if you really fear that you'd play against those decks, there's always the sideboard. And even then I think I'd rather play Qasali Pridemage or something.

    But in the end, I concede that I might just be running my mouth because CorpT's deck may not exactly be Deadguy. So, I ask: What is the goal of Deadguy? Is the goal to be as versatile as possible? Is resolving Vindicate how the deck wins its games? Is the aim of a Deadguy deck different than the goal of CorpT's deck? If you want to be able to deal with everything, why are you trying to play an aggro deck? (Is this deck an aggro deck?)

  20. #2040
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    I look at Vindicate as a way to Stabalize the board or answer threats and if that doesn't need to be a done, as a solid way to disrupt my opponent (ussually blasting a Land). It also gives you the flexibility and outs to not scoop to almost any deck game 1 and a way to deal with everything from problematic Enchantments, Artifactss/Equipment and Planeswalkers.

    However, this Vindicate argue seems to be going nowhere. If someone doesn't want to play Vindicate, its their loss. I already think calling this deck Deadguy without running Sinkhole is a stretch. If you take out Sinkhole it is definitely a whole nother thing. A deck is not the same as another one if card choices vary greatly and/or the "path to victory" has changed a lot (and it has).

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