Planning to run this:
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Shambling Vent
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
3 Mother of Runes
1 Hero of Bladehold
2 Bitterblossom
2 Sylvan Library
2 Chrome Mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
2 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
Sideboard
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Tormod's Crypt (might be a Nihil Spellbomb)
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Siege Rhino
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Manriki-Gusari
Changes to the list will be the following:
+2 Marsh Flats
-1 Verdant Catacomb
-1 Windswepth Heath
Just don't have the Marsh Flats yet
+1 Karakas
-1 Shambling Vent
Need to buy the Karakas
I'm also a big fan of Painful Truth, but I played a similar list (without the Moxes) with 2 Library and 2 Truths. But I found when I got Library going and a Dark Confident, you are in no need of Painful Truth. Also, Library gives more advantage over the mid to longer game, you can filter the cards with fetches and doesn't need to cost life.
Biggest con's with Library:
- can be destroyed (even before it comes active) but at least it draws the removal so your creatures or equipment won't get hit
- takes a turn to come active
- after a turn, you have to pay 4 life or 8 life to get the near the same advantage of Truth
Biggest con's with Truth:
- cost 1 mana more, need to have the 3 mana, when short on mana (screw/wasteland/no DRS) this can be difficult
- when you cast it, you can't usually do anything else
- one time advantage, no help for a longer run
- no filtering (for BoB), can get you 3 lands or 3 crappy things (less likely)
So my main reason's for playing Library over Truth are no filtering for BoB, and potentially losing a turn, you can drop a Library on turn 2, just to filter out your third mana source, while with Truth you may need to wait even before getting that third mana. And playing both is unnecessary, you got CA from BoB, SFM, and library.
Recently bought 2 Liliana's (still need to receive them) and they will definitly go in. Only thing is, where? Was thinking about removing the Vindicate and Hero for her. I love to play Vindicate, but Abrupt Decay is just way better (except no landkill and CMC>3). And Hero is more a closing creature. And with Mom out, you can only get her with sweepers or council's judgement. So maybe removing a Vindicate and a Chrome Mox?
I want the Mox(es) for an explosive turn 1 play, or against wasteland decks, or to get Lilly or Hero out early. Worst topdeck, but helps smooth out the mana.
Mom is an amazing turn 1 drop, protects BoB or SFM, or other things. Except is almost useless against Eldrazi.
Normally I would play SoFaI, but SoLaS gives a better protection suite, White (STP) and Black (Abrupt Decay) ok, they can still destroy the sword, but that's the same with SoFaI. The lifegain is nice for us (BoB, Library, Bitterblossom), and you can recur Mom, BoB, SFM, DRS, Hero. I think it has more use in this deck than SoFaI. We got removal and CA enough, plus you need to get through. I have a feeling it does more with protection from White and Black, but I can be wrong.
And Bitterblossom is so nice, provides a constant of fliers/chumpblockers at the cost of one life a turn, and if you land it against Miracles, they will have a tough time defending against it.
So guys, what do you think? And what to get out for Lily?
I put Painful Truth to my Nicfit deck immediately after getting the copies; but I would never use it in my DGA deck.
They are just very different systems. Nicfit decks (could) have plenty of mana, mutiple lifegain cards, and lack of card-advantage engine like Bob or Library.
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
I think thats the least 1 cmc discard spell I've seen in a DGA list! Though, if it works for your meta, then I can't complain.
Personally I'd cut a SFM, I think a 3 for 3 equips is a good amount. I've played with 4 before, but it felt too much for me.
Also have you tested with SDT instead of Library/Painful? I like it the most out of the 3 so far (though I'm still testing a singleton painful truths, so that might change)
You can also test with a 61 card deck. I'm running 61 right now and I haven't had any issues that my 60 card version didn't have. So I'd just remove a SFM and throw in the Lilis and see where that takes you.
I like having a vindicate in the deck, since it can give you an out against a lot of things you normally wouldn't be able to hit with abrupt. I've used it a few times to kill jace, omniscience, as a stone rain, and more.
Hmmm, yeah 2 1CMC discard seems kinda low. With 3 Lingering Souls and 2 Bitterblossom I can see a Cabal Therapy in the board.
No Liliana is a bit odd too. I can understand no Lillys in heavy Death and Tax/Deadguy builds but that's not the case here.
As mentioned before, I'd consider cutting a Stoneforge Mystic. I used to play 4 Mystic and 3 Equipment and had sad moments of casting a Mystic for nothing. However, you do play 2 Library so perhaps you won't have that same issue I had.
And I'd probably cut a Thalia for a Gaddock Teeg. IMO it's a more impactful hatebear.
Tournament Report. Lost in Semi-finals in a 64 person tournament for a Time Walk. 6 rounds cut to top 8. I went 5-1-2 overall.
Maindeck is the same old, same old. Sideboard a bit different. Took out a Revoker and a Relic of Progenitus for a COP:Red and an Enlightened Tutor. Debated on replacing the Containment Priest with a Thalia but decided to leave the Priest in. My decklist is on tcdecks.net if you want to see what list looks like.
Round 1. Grixis Delver with Shamans. Won 2-0
He wins die roll and plays a deathrite. On my turn I have a land. Then Chrome mox, play a Deathrite. And then another deathrite, the 2nd one gets Dazed. He doesn't have a Bolt for the other Deathrite. I have enough other mana that my Deathrite is just there to nullify his deathrite.
Don't remember much about 2nd game.
Round 2. Infect. Won 2-0
He wins the die roll. He decides to go first. I joke that I know he's infect and not his other deck is Manaless Dredge. I have too much removal for him to deal with. Game 1 ends with me having Liliana, 4 Lingering Soul tokens and a Bob.
Round 3. Infect. Won 2-0
I know he's on infect too from scouting around. I open with a turn 1 Stoneforge Mystic and get a jitte. He plays a Glistener Elf on his turn 1. I then play another land and plow the elf and his endstep bring in my jitte. GG.
Game 2 I keep a hand of 2 lands, 1 zealous, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 bob, and another removal that wasn't Plow. He plays elf go. I play land, EE for 1. He then double invigorates elf for 9 poison, plays Blighted Agent and passes with 1 card in hand. I play a land and cast Zealous crossing my fingers that his card isn't a daze. It's not. So I'm able to stabilize at 9 poison.
Round 4. Omnitell. won 2-0
He's able to show and tell into Omniscience. He gets kozilek's return with a Cunning wish, wipes my board and then casts Emrakul. GG.
Game 2 and 3, I'm able to rip his hand apart with discard. In game 2 he makes a mistake and intuitions for a card, forgetting that A, I didn't pass the turn yet and B, I have a cabal therapy in my gy and a Dark Confidant in play. In game 3 I surgical his Show and tell.
After the game he asks how many Cabal Therapies I play. And then Inqusition of Kozilek. And then Surgical. lol, the answer is one. I joke that it's all I really need.
Round 5 and 6. ID. I'm then 5th seed going in.
Round 7. Sneak show. won 2-0
He's stuck on just one land, a mountain. I waste his land which is a Tundra. I do read other threads on the source and now know that he's probably on a Monastery Mentor sideboard package. I'm lucky his mana screwed as I was only drawing Lingering Souls. So I won with 8 soul token beatdown.
Game 2, he's mana light again early and draws bricks for quite a bit. I have a Batterskull and a bunch of tokens out. He has a mentor out but not many ways to make more guys and draws Top a turn or 2 too late.
Round 8. Grixis pyro. Lost 2-0
He's able to therapy and Pyro. So my hand is gone. Happened both games.
So I finish 4th out of 64. Alright. In top 4 we could have split but I was the no sir this time (i usually go for split) as I don't have a Time Walk. So I lost out on quite a bit of credit (350 for split, 100 for losing in top 4).
My Cop:red didn't come into play at all as I didn't face any UR Delver or burn. I miss not having relic of Progenitus in the board. Omnitell was a scary matchup. Gaddock Teeg only really stops Force of Will and that time I wished I did have Thalia and not Priest. I joked that maybe the Cop:red could be a singleton Leyline of Sanctity. lol, I already have a Singelton Leyline of the Void.
It depends. Thalia is much better against fellow fair decks and with equips. First Strike is a big deal as players of DGA trying to attack through a Thalia well know. Being able to ground-stall Shardless Agents and the like with your anti-combo piece is neat.Originally Posted by Wilkin
But it really depends on deck makeup. You can go the GSZ route which has synergy with Teeg or you can go the #-of-hatebears route, which works better with Thalia (IMO) because it is just a better creature. Thalia improves weird matches too, like Lands, Dredge, etc.. and it coordinates very well with Wasteland against anything.
Personally, I'd love to see a DGA-ish deck evolve that combines Loam and Thalia just to really put the mana-screws to people. Certainly Teeg helps with things like Terminus.
Don't you think that LftL is enough of a nonbo with Thalia that it'll flop? I mean, that sounds okay with like Crucible if it's a route you want to go, but it feels weak. I also am not keen on accidentally milling my equipment.
As much as I love both loam and Thalia, I just don't see a deck with them both like that. I did think of a RW Stompyesque list with Thalia, fulminator mages, avalanche riders and such. That way you get tax effects but you don't tax your land destruction. It's probably terrible, but certainly not dead guy.
Good stuff Wilkins. I continue to love the chrome moxen in theory. How many zealous do you run? Do you find it to be worse with eldrazi? Also I'm sure Shriekmaw is awesome against drazi
Tescrin: While I think Thalia is ok vs Dredge, she is definitely not coming in vs Lands. IMO, that would backfire huge. Lands has what, 4 mox diamond and 30+ lands. If anyone is going to get hurt being taxed it's Deadguy in that matchup.
1 zealous Persecution in the board. It's barely ok vs Eldrazi since they do run Eldrazi Mimic but that's the only guy u can kill with it. I've played vs Eldrazi twice. I've won both times but that deck is super scary. Lol, yeah Shriekmaw is awesome. It gets around Thorn of Amythyst and Reality Smasher. In my last game vs Eldrazi I evoked one Shriekmaw and hardcast the other one. I didn't consider running an ensnaring bridge in the board but i just hope my removal gets there. I put in a Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, Engineered Explosives, and 2 Abrupt Decays vs them and cross my fingers it's enough. In limited sample size it's ok but if Eldrazi becomes a major player I would make some changes to the sideboard.
Yeah Chrome Mox is still super good. I still have a friend who asks what's the difference between a Stoneforge Mystic turn 1 and one that's turn 2. I wish my friend could have seen the look on my opponent's face (infect player).
Yeah turn 3 active jitte is pretty insane. Kind of why I wanted to play some non 0 number of ancient tombs at times in the deck to be nice with quicker equips, but that would certainly retool the deck a bit to take in the extra life loss and slightly higher curve probably. Do you ever find yourself running out of cards with chrome mox? Or just having the issue with every card being too good to pin under it?
I usually end up imprinting a higher casting card. Vindicate is the usual choice. Sometimes it's a card that I don't think is as relevant in the matchup like discard or a Shriekmaw. I think Deathrite is the card I've imprinted the least, i've only done it for the immediate green mana.
I usually don't have a problem with cards in hand for imprinting chrome mox (early game). It sucks when I draw it late but even if I didn't play Chrome Mox, it would be a land in it's place and a land late game isn't going to help me much either.
Never really thought about Ancient Tombs. Too many colored spells and we already play 4 Wastelands. I did build a white Stompy deck with Stoneforges and Heros. With that new white 2 mana removal spell I may give it another shot in an FNM. I did enjoy the times when I would cast Lightning greaves turn 1 and turn 2 play and equip Hero of Bladehold.
From experience, it's one of the best cards to T2 in the MU. The reason is because it keeps them a turn slower on PFire or Loam locks since they're a mana off; meaning you have another turn to DRS, Waste them, or land another "must remove" threat.
The MU is all about Tempo and Thalia is pure tempo gain. If you go watch some D&T MUs vs Lands; she tends to be all-star if they're going to win. She also makes *their* wastelands worse. I realize what you're saying, but the only thing lands does is cast Loam and Pfire, so you're taxing 100% of the relevant part of their deck; other than Stage/Depths.
Doesn't matter if you have 30+ lands in a deck when you *have to* cast several sorceries a turn to do anything.
On T3 Jittes:
Why isn't it good enough to run mana-dudes? Certainly running 2 Hiearch is just strictly better than running 2x Ancient Tomb. T3 Jitte in that setup (maverick) is usually of the form:
T1 mana
T2 SFM
T3 Jitte + Equip.
I get that that's pretty ideal; but Ancient tomb is the same thing; except that it'll cost you 4 life.
I don't think we want to be running any pure mana dudes anyways, nor do we want ancient tombs. I don't think a scenario comes up for its use often enough where we can cut a non-colorless land.
DRS is already a mana dork kinda, and any other mana dork would be a terrible top deck late game.
While I agree with you for DGA; I think you calling Noble Hierach a "pure mana dude" is indicative of never playing her. Exalted is a real thing. Goyfs punching through Anglers and opposing Goyfs; TNNs/Cliques swinging for 5, 2/2s attacking through thalia is even nice.
I am completely neglecting the possibility of Hierach in this deck because it doesn't generate black mana. Exalted is great, and heirarch is a great card, but its inclusion would make this a different deck entirely. Many of the T1 and T2 plays we want to make need black mana.
I don't get what part of "I agree with you for DGA" you didn't get.
and I dont see why you brought up heirarch having exaled. if your point doesn't pertain to the deck, then why mention it?
Played another small tournament. 5 round cut to top 8. Lost in quarters. Same 75 as last time.
Observations.
I don't think I really need COP: red for UR Delver. Since lists now are running Stormchaser Mage instead of Young Pyromancer it's a lot easier to contain their creatures. I boarded in 2 Decays, 1 Deluge, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 E. Tutor and a Cop: red. Never needed the COP: red as I have more removal than they have creatures.
So basically COP: Red is then only really for Burn. Not sure if that's worth such a narrow sideboard slot.
Lost in 3, 2 times vs Shardless Bug. I miss Relic of Progenitus here. Gideon and Hero of Bladehold won me both games. Gideon IMO is better than Elspeth right now.
Played vs Eldrazi again. Won in 3. I took out some of my 1 mana discard for more removal. Their draws can be very scary but with enough removal and not being too dependent on 1 mana cost cards, Eldrazi is a winnable matchup. I previously thought about adding an Ensnaring Bridge to the board but after 3 matches vs Eldrazi, matchup feels okay. Plus, very few people are playing Eldrazi.
So I'm probably going to take out the Enlightened Tutor and Cop: Red again for probably a Relic of Progenitus and something else.
Can you share your 75 Wilkin? Since I'm not able to find them, especially not a list with Gideon.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Shriekmaw
1 Hero of Bladehold
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vindicate
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering SOuls
2 Chome Mox
4 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
Side. 2 Gaddock Teeg. 2 Abrupt Decay. 1 Leyline of the VOid. 1 Surgical Extraction. 1 Rest in Peace. 1 Enlightened Tutor. 1 Circle of Protection Red. 1 Containment Priest. 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. 1 Engineered Explosives. 1 Toxic Deluge. 1 Zealous Persecution. 1 Pithining Needle.
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