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Thread: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

  1. #41
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    Withered Wretch is not the best two drop but it needs to stay in the sideboard. 5 of the top 8 decks at GP Philly used and abused the Graveyard. I think it was Godzilla who pointed out the necessity/ possibilty of seeing/needing a "metric fuckton" of graveyard hate in the near future.

    I agree with replacing Negator with StP. I might even try +1 each of StP and Darkblast. More time playing against Goblins will help make that decision.
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  2. #42

    I could be going out on a limb by saying that StP would be the proper choice, because it can kill a Meddling Mage, while Darkblast would be the better choice against goblins. As we all know, boarding is a meta choice-as Mr. Pikula pointed out, he brought the Withered Wretch in almost every matchup for a simple guy to have on the table. I do agree that he is very good against most decks abusing the graveyard, so there is no point taking it out. The question is, should it be main deck? And what is worth putting to the side for it? For those of you who know the deck, or who read the article on magicthegathering.com blogging the finals of GP Philly, there are 4 targets in a Goblin deck to hit with Duress (Ęther Vial). This shift would, however, take a primary first turn spell. Any suggestions?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    The fairly obvious flaw in your reasoning is that Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor do produce mana. Pretending they don't won't change the function of the cards.

  3. #43
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    Is there a logical reason to run 2 verdicts besides the fact that chris did so?

  4. #44
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    Having tested the deck without additional hand destruction in that slot, I'd have to say yes. Against aggro it's not all that impressive, but the additional hand destruction is very important for keeping the pressure on against control strategies. In theory, the potential lifegain to offset the loss of life from Dark Confidant can also be of use, but that hasn't been a huge factor in most of my test games. I'm not totally convinced that this slot shouldn't be Therapies (as I've already mentioned in this thread), but I'd say in a metagame with a significant control presence you want it to be hand destruction of some kind.

    Therapy is a gamble, Verdict and Scroll are consistent.
    I never suggested Scroll should be removed. If I ever do, slap me. It fulfills a very important role in the deck. As for Verdict, it may be less of a gamble than Therapy, but it gives your opponent the choice of what to discard, which is a gamble in and of itself. In my testing at least, I am more often afraid of one specific card in my opponent's hand than I am of anything else. In those circumstances, even if the Therapy whiffs, the key threat I fear in that circumstance isn't an issue, and I can proceed with that knowledge.

    Further, Therapy is only a gamble when you don't have Duress, or foreknowledge of your opponent's hand. Therapy following Intuition, Gifts Ungiven, Enlightened/Mystical Tutor, Goblin Matron, Burning/Cunning/Living Wish, Survival activation, etc. provide you the information you need to make Therapy useful.

    I understand your point about card advantage, but, in the situation you proposed, card advantage means nothing if you die in your upkeep.
    You mistook my point. If I'm getting that low on life, I'll preemptively sac my Confidant during my turn to prevent death on my upkeep.

    @Wretch:

    I agree with umbowta on this one. The fact that Wretch beats is secondary to its ability to rape the opponent's yard, especially in the current metagame. Rifter/Wombat with Eternal Dragon, Gro with... well, everything, Dredge Tog with everything, Iggy Pop with Ill-Gotten Gains, Landstill with Wasteland/Manland recursion, Salvager Game with LED/Sphere, RDW with Lavamancer and Fledgling Dragon, RGSA with Anger and friends, etc... with the possible exception of the pre-ban days when Dragon and WelderMUD were still legal, there has never been a better time to run graveyard hate in this format.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA
    Having tested the deck without additional hand destruction in that slot, I'd have to say yes. Against aggro it's not all that impressive, but the additional hand destruction is very important for keeping the pressure on against control strategies. In theory, the potential lifegain to offset the loss of life from Dark Confidant can also be of use, but that hasn't been a huge factor in most of my test games. I'm not totally convinced that this slot shouldn't be Therapies (as I've already mentioned in this thread), but I'd say in a metagame with a significant control presence you want it to be hand destruction of some kind.
    I was referring to the aribitrary assignment of two additional discard slots in the deck, whether they be verdicts or therapies. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me why one would just accept this constraint on the deck just because someone else built it that way. I don't see why there should be two additional slots rather than four or zero, regardless of the merits of the specific discard spell.

  6. #46
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    In my experience? The tertiary hand destruction slot (after Duress and Hymn) should almost never be a 4-of. At that point, you tend to run into too many situations where you're topdecking hand destruction when it longer matters. At most I'd run 3 tertiary hand destruction cards, but 2 has seemed like a pretty solid balance in testing. As a 1-of it wouldn't be a consistent enough draw to bother with, and as a 3-of, it only leaves 1 additional slot in the deck for removal, (be it StP or Plague), and that also seems janky without a way to tutor for it.

  7. #47

    Godzilla: How do you feel about Distress over Therapy? Granted, you lose your ability to sac Confidant, but you would always nail a card. I wouldn't want to take out Confidant though-as it's your only draw ability-the thing to take into consideration is what could you run to maintain card advantage? The only thing i can think of is Phyrexian Arena-which (IMO) sucks.

    On another note, Godzilla, I completely agree with you that 2 Verdicts feels like the exact right number.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    The fairly obvious flaw in your reasoning is that Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor do produce mana. Pretending they don't won't change the function of the cards.

  8. #48
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    I'd call Distress almost strictly inferior to Verdict in this deck. The only reason I'd consider Therapy over Verdict is because Therapy can sometimes be 2 or even 3 for 1, and at 1cc it rounds out your curve better. If you're going to be paying 2 mana for a hand destruction spell, it had better be hitting 2 cards.

    As for removing Confidant from the deck, I would never ever suggest such a thing. It's one of the best cards in the deck by far. I just like having ways to remove them if they become a liability.

  9. #49

    @Distress: I'm merely brainstorming-pardon my inferior suggestions.

    I understand your need to do away with Confidant-I always found that attacking(when they have blockers of course) with it is usually death.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    The fairly obvious flaw in your reasoning is that Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor do produce mana. Pretending they don't won't change the function of the cards.

  10. #50
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    23 land, and only four fetchlands. Is this (and tainted field) ordinarily sub-optimal configuration just used to minimize life loss from Confidant? I would certainly want to run 22/6, but I am not sure if it makes the life loss problem significantly worse.

    3 Shades. Shade is such an efficient card, both in the early and late game. It is a good blocker and a good finisher, and is a card that allows good players to outplay their opponents. Why wouldn't you run four of these?

    2 Cursed Scroll. Isn't three better? Is the chance of drawing a second scroll so bad, especially with the increased removal and tempo in the early game?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus
    23 land, and only four fetchlands. Is this (and tainted field) ordinarily sub-optimal configuration just used to minimize life loss from Confidant? I would certainly want to run 22/6, but I am not sure if it makes the life loss problem significantly worse.

    3 Shades. Shade is such an efficient card, both in the early and late game. It is a good blocker and a good finisher, and is a card that allows good players to outplay their opponents. Why wouldn't you run four of these?

    2 Cursed Scroll. Isn't three better? Is the chance of drawing a second scroll so bad, especially with the increased removal and tempo in the early game?
    Talking about adding cards without discussing what you are taking out doesn't seem very useful.
    I do think drawing 2 cursed scrolls is quite bad- this is especially true because a very common way to stop the Scroll is Pithing Needle. I only played 3 Shades because 11 creatures ended up feeling like the right amount. I'm sure the deck would perform very nearly the same if you took out a Gerrard's Verdict for a 4th Shade. Or if you made one Hypnotic Specter a Withered Wretch. It is impossible to determine absolutely what the proper number of a particular card is except in cases where it is very obviously 4.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paluka
    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus
    23 land, and only four fetchlands. Is this (and tainted field) ordinarily sub-optimal configuration just used to minimize life loss from Confidant? I would certainly want to run 22/6, but I am not sure if it makes the life loss problem significantly worse.

    3 Shades. Shade is such an efficient card, both in the early and late game. It is a good blocker and a good finisher, and is a card that allows good players to outplay their opponents. Why wouldn't you run four of these?

    2 Cursed Scroll. Isn't three better? Is the chance of drawing a second scroll so bad, especially with the increased removal and tempo in the early game?
    Talking about adding cards without discussing what you are taking out doesn't seem very useful.
    I'm not "adding" cards, so I don't have to "take out" any. I'm doing actual deck design, not just copying and modifying someone else's list. If this is unfamiliar to you please see the New and Developmental Forum.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus
    Quote Originally Posted by Paluka
    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus
    23 land, and only four fetchlands. Is this (and tainted field) ordinarily sub-optimal configuration just used to minimize life loss from Confidant? I would certainly want to run 22/6, but I am not sure if it makes the life loss problem significantly worse.

    3 Shades. Shade is such an efficient card, both in the early and late game. It is a good blocker and a good finisher, and is a card that allows good players to outplay their opponents. Why wouldn't you run four of these?

    2 Cursed Scroll. Isn't three better? Is the chance of drawing a second scroll so bad, especially with the increased removal and tempo in the early game?
    Talking about adding cards without discussing what you are taking out doesn't seem very useful.
    I'm not "adding" cards, so I don't have to "take out" any. I'm doing actual deck design, not just copying and modifying someone else's list. If this is unfamiliar to you please see the New and Developmental Forum.
    Actually, I'm the one who designed this deck. Does that count? I thought you guys might find it useful/helpful/interesting if I joined the discussion.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paluka
    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus
    Quote Originally Posted by Paluka
    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus
    23 land, and only four fetchlands. Is this (and tainted field) ordinarily sub-optimal configuration just used to minimize life loss from Confidant? I would certainly want to run 22/6, but I am not sure if it makes the life loss problem significantly worse.

    3 Shades. Shade is such an efficient card, both in the early and late game. It is a good blocker and a good finisher, and is a card that allows good players to outplay their opponents. Why wouldn't you run four of these?

    2 Cursed Scroll. Isn't three better? Is the chance of drawing a second scroll so bad, especially with the increased removal and tempo in the early game?
    Talking about adding cards without discussing what you are taking out doesn't seem very useful.
    I'm not "adding" cards, so I don't have to "take out" any. I'm doing actual deck design, not just copying and modifying someone else's list. If this is unfamiliar to you please see the New and Developmental Forum.
    Actually, I'm the one who designed this deck. Does that count? I thought you guys might find it useful/helpful/interesting if I joined the discussion.
    Obviously you can't take my word for it now, but I think everyone would be very happy about your input.

    I'd like to respond to your new comments.

    Cursed Scroll: do people really pith this? Facing B/W I would almost certainly want to deal with wasteland first. Especially after sideboaring, it seems like there are more relevant plays to be making for most decks, like dealing with wasteland, engineered plague, wretch, etc. Scroll won you a game in the finals against Goblins; does the possibility of drawing a dead card outweigh the power of an active scroll?

    Shade: I don't think the fourth shade is necessary with so much disruption, but it's so powerful that putting the fourth one in shouldn't be overlooked.

    Would you comment on the manabase? Is tainted field in there for life considerations?

    Let me apologize for my curt response to your original post, and reiterate that the source would be very happy to include you in any discussion of Magic.

  15. #55

    Chris, since you're the creator of the deck, I was wondering what you think should be changed in the deck to beat goblin consistently, would you add more shades, scrolls, what's you're opinion on the deck and it's future?

    Please tell me, cause I'm interested in learning what the creator thinks.

    thank you

  16. #56
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    Needle is just usually the answer people have for scroll, because I don't have any other disenchant targets (except Goblins with white will bring in disenchants).
    I think the one Tainted Field is very good. No pain, and it almost never hurts you because all your other black lands are swamps. I do think the deck probably could use one more white source, so I think a 5th fetchland is probably the way to go.

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    Chris, do you have an updated list? I read on SCG that you always sided in Wretches, and the negators in the sb were pretty much useless. Do you have a different decklist with the wretches main? What did you replace the negators with?
    Team TTK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco2156
    Chris, since you're the creator of the deck, I was wondering what you think should be changed in the deck to beat goblin consistently, would you add more shades, scrolls, what's you're opinion on the deck and it's future?

    Please tell me, cause I'm interested in learning what the creator thinks.

    thank you
    I haven't done enough testing to know what my true win percentage is against Goblins. There isn't some secret way to make the deck better against goblins. The only way to improve the Goblin matchup is to take disruption out and fit in more Plagues, Plowshares, Scrolls, and creatures. This will obviously be a tradeoff because it will weaken your deck against other decks. If you are in a creature heavy format without much combo or control, the first thing you should probably do is replace the Gerrard's Verdicts with Swords to Plowshares.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miseatron
    Chris, do you have an updated list? I read on SCG that you always sided in Wretches, and the negators in the sb were pretty much useless. Do you have a different decklist with the wretches main? What did you replace the negators with?
    I don't have an updated list, because I dont' have a tourney to play in. As I stated in my SCG article, I would replace the Negators in the board with 2 more StP.

  20. #60
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    @Paluka:
    I haven't read your SCG article, but I'm curious what convinced you to play the deck as it was constructed. Were you convinced that you could beat goblins with 2 Plagues in the main? Were you more concerned with combo ie (Solidarity, Iggy Pop)?

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