Page 6 of 319 FirstFirst ... 23456789101656106 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 6380

Thread: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

  1. #101
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    The question rests very heavily on the metagame, obviously. First and foremost, it's not entirely out of the question to drop Verdicts in the maindeck for 2 maindecked Wretches, which leaves you two open slots right there. Further, it's not entirely out of the question to drop some Pithing Needles. By and large, Needle is strong against combo, which is already positive for you. It's also good against Survival, obviously, but I'd contend that Perish is better.

    Incidentally, I did some testing today against UGw Thresh with 3x Perish in the board. We played 2 pre-board games, and 5 post-board games. Deadguy went 6-1, losing one of the preboarded games. Note also that the Thresh player was bringing in 2 Misdirections from the side. Perish was, as expected, a total house in the matchup. Obviously these few games don't mean anything even remotely conclusive, but they seem to indicate that pre-board is very roughly 50/50, and post-board is positive in favor of Deadguy. This might change if Compost gets added to Thresh's SB, but I've been siding out all the hand destruction except the Hymns and Hyppies anyway, so it probably wouldn't be too difficult to just change the SB strategy to play around Compost almost completely.

    I have yet to test against the UGr builds yet... I'll post some results once I have them.

  2. #102
    Site Contributor
    Lego's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2004
    Location

    Jamaica Plain, MA
    Posts

    2,016

    I'm surprised that the matchup is that skewed after board. Can you tell us what you are boarding on both sides, and how the games were usually won? My board for Thresh has virtually nothing I would want to bring in.

    I think the Red splash will do much better, as Pyroclasm seems to be pretty effective against Pikula. I couldn't say from actual testing results though, and I'd love if you could post some of those :)

  3. #103
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Quote Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
    I'm surprised that the matchup is that skewed after board. Can you tell us what you are boarding on both sides, and how the games were usually won? My board for Thresh has virtually nothing I would want to bring in.
    I don't know exactly how he was boarding, but I know he brought in 3 Mongooseses and 2 Misdirections. I brought in 3 Swords, 3 Perish, and 4 Withered Wretch, in lieu of 2 Engineered Plague, 2 Gerrard's Wisdom, 2 Cursed Scroll, and 4 Duress. (When I found out he was running Misdirection I swapped out Hymn instead of Duress).

    Essentially, the reason that they beat you when they do is that they have large beatsticks and you don't have effective ways of removing them. In a prolonged ground war, they're going to win that fight. The preboard games you win you win because your disruption is enough to keep them from getting on solid ground before they get real threats online, which isn't a perfectly consistent strategy. Post board, you win because you have 10 highly relevant creature removal spells (3 of which are mass removal), and you have Wretch to keep their creatures from getting Thresh. It's a rather dramatic change, and one that benefits you greatly.

    I agree with you that the UGr Thresh build is likely to perform better against Deadguy than its UGw counterpart; Pyroclasm gives them mass removal of their own, and their Dragons are unaffected by Perish. Further, they have burn to supplement the damage you're already doing to yourself. This is speculation, however. I'll do some real testing and let you all know how it pans out.

  4. #104
    Permanent Waves
    AnwarA101's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2004
    Posts

    1,858

    What's the sideboard strategy against Gro? I played against it a few weeks ago and it seemed like their threats were just better than mine. I even got my Shade hit by Pithing Needle and essentially wasn't much of threat. I boarded out 4 Duress, 2 Engineered Plague, and 2 Cursed Scroll. I boarded in 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Withered Wretch. I was not playing Perish, because I was running Pikula's board. I still got overrun in game 2 as well. Is this an effective strategy? What would you board out to put in Perish?

  5. #105
    Banned
    calosso's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2004
    Location

    fairfax VA
    Posts

    668

    Why would you sideout Duress since you can hit cantrips or counterspells with it.

  6. #106
    Permanent Waves
    AnwarA101's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2004
    Posts

    1,858

    Quote Originally Posted by calosso
    Why would you sideout Duress since you can hit cantrips or counterspells with it.
    Because Duress is by far the weakest card against them. It doesn't help you get rid of their threats. While it does hit cantrips and counterspells its just weaker than the other discard spells (Hymn and Verdict). I don't see what else you can take out against them that is less effective.

  7. #107
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101
    Quote Originally Posted by calosso
    Why would you sideout Duress since you can hit cantrips or counterspells with it.
    Because Duress is by far the weakest card against them. It doesn't help you get rid of their threats. While it does hit cantrips and counterspells its just weaker than the other discard spells (Hymn and Verdict). I don't see what else you can take out against them that is less effective.
    Precisely. Duress came out because it was the least bad choice. Hymn stayed because it's card advantage, which is particularly effective against a deck that doesn't have that much true card advantage of its own (in this case, AK and Predict). However, knowing that Misdirection is in the mix, I felt safer siding out the Hymns and keeping in the Duress. Besides, it was nice having a first turn play that didn't involve Ritual.

  8. #108
    Permanent Waves
    AnwarA101's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2004
    Posts

    1,858

    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA
    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101
    Quote Originally Posted by calosso
    Why would you sideout Duress since you can hit cantrips or counterspells with it.
    Because Duress is by far the weakest card against them. It doesn't help you get rid of their threats. While it does hit cantrips and counterspells its just weaker than the other discard spells (Hymn and Verdict). I don't see what else you can take out against them that is less effective.
    Precisely. Duress came out because it was the least bad choice. Hymn stayed because it's card advantage, which is particularly effective against a deck that doesn't have that much true card advantage of its own (in this case, AK and Predict). However, knowing that Misdirection is in the mix, I felt safer siding out the Hymns and keeping in the Duress. Besides, it was nice having a first turn play that didn't involve Ritual.
    I guess if I knew that Misdirection was coming in that would probably lead you to stick with Duress over Hymn. But I doubt Misdirection is a good card in the current format. It does almost nothing against every deck type except Black decks and Burn. Why would you board Misdirection, just for Deadyguy Ale? I guess so.

  9. #109
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Battle Ground, WA
    Posts

    27

    Shortfang came out for the Gerard's Verdict, because it's actually more useful (for me) against burn and I only play 2. Verdict would put them into topdeck mode but I still couldnt keep creatures around to kill them. The Rat flips easily and forces them to burn him out over other threats, so I can sneak in more damage that way. Also it's rarely a turn two play, since he actually wants to flip, so he ends up being played turns 3 and 4 more often than turn 2 since he's a less desirable mana sink than Shades. I tend to flip him on his first activation.

    I run 2x Perish in the SB because the Confidant makes it like running 3x. They swapped out for Darkblast because the deck tends to win against Goblins a LOT outta the sideboard and can steal away games 1's fairly often. GodzillA's sideboard plan is identical to mine but I side 4 Sword 2 Perish. Perish makes Surivial winnable and against either variant of grow it kills every creature except their splash color critters, and you can generally screw them for that color.

    My current SB is: 4 Swords, 2 Perish, 4 Wretch, 2 Plagues, 3 CoP: Red. This is because of the Batcave's meta which is randomly HEAVY burn... Anyway depending on what I see prior to the kick off the 2 MD Plagues leap out for various other cards, most oftenly 2 Swords (good against most things) or 2 Wretches, cause warm bodies are good.

    The 3 CoP's are to give me a shot in hell against burn decks, I'd like to only run two, but I'm not ballsy enough to rely on Confidant to draw me one in a matchup vs burn. In fact I've been leaning towards siding out Confidants vs. Burn and just bringing in Wretches in their place. No idea why I haven't been doing this so far. Might get harder to SB once I get my needles that I had sold out from under me, 'cause wombat is hard atm.

  10. #110
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101
    I guess if I knew that Misdirection was coming in that would probably lead you to stick with Duress over Hymn. But I doubt Misdirection is a good card in the current format. It does almost nothing against every deck type except Black decks and Burn. Why would you board Misdirection, just for Deadyguy Ale? I guess so.
    Misdirection's theoretically good against other blue-based control, and maybe creature-based aggro with instant-speed targeted removal, but realistically it's there specifically for Deadguy. It would appear not to be effective enough to actually matter, though.

    The 3 CoP's are to give me a shot in hell against burn decks, I'd like to only run two, but I'm not ballsy enough to rely on Confidant to draw me one in a matchup vs burn.
    My experience with Burn hasn't been all that bad; some games it just wins outright, but other games it's not too difficult to just hit their hand over and over again until they run out of gas. Once you get them to that point, all you have to do is resolve and protect a Shade for the win. Honestly, if I were going to sb hate specifically for Burn, it would probably come in the form of Honorable Passage, or better yet, Aegis of Honor.

    In any case, maybe I'll see you at the Batcave sometime... it seems Alternate Universe here in Portland is never going to get their weekly Legacy tournament back up and running.

  11. #111
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Battle Ground, WA
    Posts

    27

    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA
    In any case, maybe I'll see you at the Batcave sometime... it seems Alternate Universe here in Portland is never going to get their weekly Legacy tournament back up and running.
    Good because Batcave can't afford to loose players. :P

    My experience against burn is this:
    1) I empty their hand.
    2) They topdeck burn to kill my threats.
    3) The topdeck more burn than I do threats.
    4) The left over burn goes to my face.
    5) I die.

    If I was to have a sideboard card for Burn and only Burn it would probably be Warmth, which makes all their cards suck. But then I still have problems against Sligh builds which also show up around here. Honorable Passage seems a little not good enough against burn since rarely are the games decided by a single burn spell, although I would love to hit a Fireblast with that. Aegis of Honor seems like it would be insanely sick against Burn though.

    But those are all fairly narrow answers, CoP just kinda makes about three decks on average loose in the local meta here.

  12. #112
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Like I said, the key is to resolve and protect a Shade against them once you've drained their hand. You don't want to play hyper-aggressively here. Use your non-Shade creatures to draw out burn in the early game, but don't play out a Shade until you've got plenty of mana to protect it.

    As for Aegis of Honor, I used to sideboard it in Angel Stompy when Burn and Zilla Stompy were still really popular in these parts; it utterly destroys Burn unless they're running Needle, Disenchant, or Anarchy. Incidentally, that's why I'd consider Honorable Passage... it's an answer that they have absolutely no way around, unless they're running Flaring Pain in the SB. Another option for Burn, if it's really a huge metagame concern, is Chalice of the Void. Side out your Duresses for them, and the only 1cc cards left in your deck are Dark Ritual and Scroll, which you'll be playing before you play Chalice in most cases anyway. Something to consider.

  13. #113
    Site Contributor
    Lego's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2004
    Location

    Jamaica Plain, MA
    Posts

    2,016

    Aegis of Honor is an interesting choice, as a lot of burn decks are not splashing (although many are going with the white splash, for both Disenchant and Lightning Helix). It's also nice that it doesn't prevent damage, so Flaring Pain from the side won't matter.

    I still wouldn't dedicate sideboard slots to it, because I don't expect to see much burn, but would you say that the matchup is winnable withoutdedicating sideboard space to it?

  14. #114
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Quote Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
    Aegis of Honor is an interesting choice, as a lot of burn decks are not splashing (although many are going with the white splash, for both Disenchant and Lightning Helix). It's also nice that it doesn't prevent damage, so Flaring Pain from the side won't matter.
    Most Burn decks not splashing white do board Pithing Needle, however, so that's an answer to it as well.


    I still wouldn't dedicate sideboard slots to it, because I don't expect to see much burn, but would you say that the matchup is winnable withoutdedicating sideboard space to it?
    My prior analysis of the matchup was assuming no SB slots dedicated to it. Burn really dislikes hand destruction. A lot. That doesn't mean it can't win, but it does mean that it's more positive than one might assume by comparing the two on paper.

  15. #115
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Canada
    Posts

    7

    Seeing as how Burn is a tough matchup how come nobody ever runs cop: red or warmth in their sbs??

  16. #116
    Member
    SpencerForHire's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2004
    Location

    Clawson, Michigan
    Posts

    222

    Because you already have enough nice bombs against them. Hating out their resources will have to do and Pithing Needle is good against COP I hear. If it is of any interest, there are currently at least 3 BW decks going into the top 8 of the MTS Tourny V which means that it was definately a good meta choice there. What kind of decks were played: All kinds!
    This deck seems good for the most part against any deck for various reasons and although some matchups are better than others it doesn't "just lose" to any deck I can think of.
    I'll post some more after the tourney is over on how it performs against the "random decks" you can run into.
    Team Technology - Think it's good? Prove it.

  17. #117
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Battle Ground, WA
    Posts

    27

    I'm really confused by all the people saying that Deadguy has bombs against burn and that the match-up isn't all that bad... because it is.

    I've played against burn MANY times and the only times I've won is by savagely mana-screwing them (no land over 8 turns) or by savagely mana flooding them (drawing only land for 8 turns). Discard is nice against them, but they can still topdeck against you and win since you have to have at least 5 mana so you can play a shade and protect it from at least a single three damage burn spell.

    Its a really bad matchup for the deck no matter how you splice it. It relies on emptying their hand while still drawing mana and threats. Sure that's important for any match but more so where every card in their deck kills one of your creatures. Land Destruction is virtually worthless unless it's complete screw because of how low the decks curve is.

    I'd have to say that the percentages are somewhere around 60/40 for burn, probably even 65/35.

  18. #118
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadath128
    I'd have to say that the percentages are somewhere around 60/40 for burn, probably even 65/35.
    For clarity, I don't disagree with this estimate. What I said before was indicating that the Burn matchup isn't unwinnable. It's unfavorable, but not as much as it appears on paper. Because on paper, it looks like Burn should beat this deck ~85/15, which it does not. If Burn is a real metagame concern for you, I strongly believe you can turn it into a positive matchup with proper sideboarding.

  19. #119
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Battle Ground, WA
    Posts

    27

    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadath128
    I'd have to say that the percentages are somewhere around 60/40 for burn, probably even 65/35.
    For clarity, I don't disagree with this estimate. What I said before was indicating that the Burn matchup isn't unwinnable. It's unfavorable, but not as much as it appears on paper. Because on paper, it looks like Burn should beat this deck ~85/15, which it does not. If Burn is a real metagame concern for you, I strongly believe you can turn it into a positive matchup with proper sideboarding.
    I honestly had the impression that you were saying this was a match-up in Deadguys favor :P

    On average Burn/Sligh is about 15-20% of the metagame at the weekly tournaments I go to. I still haven't decided between CoP:Red or Warmth, but I'm honestly leading towards Warmth since I dont like having to take mana away from Shades.

    Between Honorable Passage, Aegis of Honor, CoP, and Warmth, warmth seems the best bet, maybe even going the full on distance and running Sphere of Law, sure it hurts a lot to flip it... but it keeps on giving.

    Currently Running:
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    9 [UNH] Swamp
    4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    1 [TO] Tainted Field
    4 [R] Scrubland

    4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
    4 [A] Hypnotic Specter
    4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
    2 [CHK] Nezumi Shortfang--Stabwhisker the Odious

    4 [US] Dark Ritual
    2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
    4 [A] Sinkhole
    4 [AP] Vindicate
    4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
    4 [US] Duress
    2 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

    SB: 4 [LE] Withered Wretch
    SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
    SB: 2 [A] Swords to Plowshares
    SB: 2 [TE] Perish
    SB: 3 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red

    Pretty standard stuff. Shortfangs have been good to me, I'd suggest trying them out if you haven't. CoP's like I said are still in debate, however the only testing I really get against sligh/burn is on Workshop playing against myself.

    What problems have shown up for anyone else out there? How many are actually playing this deck?

  20. #120
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Your list is identical to my current build with a few exceptions:

    1. -1 Swamp, +1 Tainted Field. You want 10 ways to get white mana by turn 2.

    2. Like Pikula, I tend run Verdict in the Shortfang slot, simply because the lifegain can be important. If I weren't running Wisdom, I'd be running Wretch or StP in this slot, depending on the metagame. Shortfang has been kinda meh in my testing.

    3. How many Goblins players are there at the Batcave? If there are a lot of them, I'd want to back up Plague with 2 Darkblast like Pikula did. That's what really turns the tide in your favor, in my experience.

    4. If there's enough reason to run any at all, I'd run 3 Perish. Even over the 4th StP.

    5. You missing Pithing Needle at all?

    6. Re: Warmth. Any Burn player not splashing white had damn well better be running either Anarchy or Vortex in the sideboard. Both of them answer Warmth. Test Honorable Passage. I honestly think it may be all you need to turn the matchup in your favor, and it's the hardest hate for them to play around.

    7. Note: Gerrard's Verdict is savage in the Burn matchup. That you aren't running it is almost cerainly contributing to your difficulty there.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)