This is the list that I put together after ban:
41 - Spells
4 Aluren
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Cavern Harpy
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Glint-Nest Crane
1 Parasitc Strix
1 Liliana, the last Hope
19 - Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Unfortunatelly we don't have a meta yet, however I thought I could start from this list and then, making the changes according to my local meta.
I like the list but was wondering if 4 basic lands warrant 3 Veteran Explorer. Starting from your list, I was thinking of going up to 21 lands and 1 BoP by cutting 3 veteran explorer and replacing Glint-Crane and Parasitic Strix with 2 Living Wish. The Wishboard could include 1 Cavern Harpy, 1 Parasitic Strix, 1 Ghostquarter (against DarkDepths; Needle naming Wasteland), 1 Rec Sage, 1 Leovold, 1 Scooze, 1 Minister of Pain, 1 Faerie Macabre.Originally Posted by bibs
Note that if we combo with Aluren, Harpy and Shardless Agent, Shardless can cascade into wish - finding strix.
Good first attempt at a fix. One concern is double forest. We usually only need a minimal amount of green until we're close to comboing off. I used to run 2 forest and felt the deck ran much smoother without it. You may struggle to find double black for the Liliana with a manabase like this as well. The more I think about it the more I'm leaning toward Heirarch or BOP, as bad as those cards seem. When you think about it, There were never any shardless decks that didn't have the mana support of Shaman or Hierarch. Probably because they'd be too slow to cast things that cost 3 or 4. Still wondering if the deck could benefit from True Name and a more different configuration
I like the idea of Living Wish, but never tried. I can even include Karakas, Guilded Drake etc. But I would like to try the Vererans on the deck. I know that they have some drawback on the cascade, but thats the price of ramping. Did you try the Living Wish package?
I never felt like wish was good when I ran it. It's slow and there's no element of surprise. Plus you'd have to clutter up your board with targets when the board needs to be more of a toolbox of spells n artifacts w/ maybe a Liliana in my view
I have not tried it yet but I thought about GSZ which is a non-bo with Shardless. In 93/94 oldschool, Regrowth is a great card that is played in every green deck (I know, not comparable, slower format, less combo). GSZ sees play in Elves and NicFit. For Aluren, Living Wish may contain the best of both worlds by finding non-green creatures from the sideboard at +1 the cost of GSZ and sideboard space. I used to play the white Recruiter build and without Aluren, I was not particularly happy to draw Recruiter/Man'o'war/Harpy/Strix. Putting the latter two in the sideboard and adding living wish is something I want to try.
You may be right. My white Recruiter list ran one-off creatures in the board which I hoped to either draw or recruiter-for in the relevant matchups. These were the ones I mentioned above plus Thalia. Faerie Macabre was a three of. It was not unusual that I stalled against reanimator for a while with DRS, Baleful Strix, TS, Therapy, Faerie Macabre, just to close out the game with a Recruiter'd for Scooze.
In almost every starting hand, I would rather see Living Wish than Cavern Harpy, Glint-Nest or Parasitic Strix.
Analogously, if you have Aluren + Baleful/Shardless, Living wish finds cavern harpy. If you have Aluren + Harpy, it can find Parasitic Strix. I will jam a few games on xmage. Maybe I will end up with your conclusion that living wish is too clunky.
Thank you for your feedback. Hope you get good results in testing. The other issue I foresee with Wish is it basically forces you to be on the Recruiter build. And then you are in that predicament of having to see and resolve Aluren to win
Good points. Any ideas on substitutes for DRS other than second-best mana dorks as of yet?
---Update as of 2:58 AM, please see my latest post. I think I might be on to something with the Nobles & TNNs
Last edited by Threat_Jammer; 07-04-2018 at 04:38 PM.
I've played some time a living wish build but it was too slow. Unless you already have aluren, you basically offer a timewalk to your opponent.
However green sun zenith seems even more appealing to me that it already was. Turn 1 to get dryad arbor. Turn 2 for birds or veteran explorer (played as 1 of). Turn 3 for coiling oracle. Turn 4 leovold. It seems to give many options and has the advantage to directly impact the board.
Attention All Architects!!!
After mulling over BOP, Explorer, and Green Sun I don't think those aren't our best plan.
And I've had some midnight oil breakthroughs in testing my idea with Hierarch and TNN as the new mid-range fallback plan if Aluren doesn't happen! It just 2-0d Sneak n Show!
I'm currently using the ROG package with 4 Baleful Strix...But might be able to make the deck even stronger by cutting the ROG plan altogether and adding Shardless Agents and more Harpies w/ Crane.
My plan to give us a control edge in the absence of Shaman's abilities is to go 4 THZ 4 FOW - that combined with LEO and Baleful seems viable at the moment.
I'll post the list when it's optimal.
Stay tuned...
Alright...I just beat the crap out of Sneak N Show again after multiple rounds of testing.
The fact that this new version can beat an established tier-1 combo deck is very exciting.
I'm moving away from the ROG strategy and sticking with BUG. BUG is much more consistent being only 3 colors and I'd rather have Shardless Agents than ROGs in my hand any day.
I had to condense the deck in order to make it work, but we have such a good mid-range plan I think we can get away with it.
I took the following out of the main:
-3 Abrupt Decay
-1 Ponder
-1 Shardless Agent
-1 Parasitic Strix
- 4 Deathrite shaman
And added:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 TNN
2 Thoughtseize
Having 4 Thoughtseize and 4 FOW main gives us more control to replace the control edge DRS gave us. I might miss the 3 Decay main, but figured these 8 control spells plus an invincible powerhouse and Baleful Strixes can justify putting those in the side. And if you're up against combo, Decay is just a dead draw where these 8 are good against everything.
In its own way, Hierarch + TNN is an even better way to win without Aluren than we had before. TNN with Exhalted or playing multiple TNNs is a much faster clock than whittling opponents down with DRS and hiding behind Baleful Strixes. And a lot of the time we can't even attack with the little BUG creatures because they'll get blocked and die. Even when we can, they don't deal a lot of damage.
Going the BUG route also means the sideboard can remain a toolbox of mostly powerful black cards.
The current board I have is this, but it's subject to change depending on how the meta evolves:
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
2 Carpet of Flowers (but honestly I never really liked this card much)
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
Can do some fun tricks with Macabre if they exhume. Faerie their reanimation creature, get Faerie back on the board, attack with it, Harpy bounce it, have Macabre to nuke their next reanimation attempt. But in general I want to extract all Life From the Loams, Punishing Fires, or key dredge components).
I may end up wanting to cut Carpet for better options but the other cards in here earned their keep in the past. Carpet may be better now that RUG will be the new Grixis.
Other board options I'm considering are: Karakas, Duress, Null Rod, Jitte, second Push, Guilded Drake (but this seemed better versus BR Reanimator than the UB Reanimator deck that will probably become the more popular choice), Liliana, The Last Hope (but since Hierarch can't produce black and TNN costs 1UU I'm not sure a card that requires BB is good anymore)
Hope this helps and gives everyone hope that Aluren can survive the bannings
Please see my latest post. I tested Wish again and it was terrible for me just as it was in the past. It always seems good and then just isn't, in my opinion. I'm very happy with my latest development of Hierarch + TNN as the new fallback plan. Will work in BUG or ROG builds, but I much prefer BUG for the reasons I mention in my latest posts. Hope this helps.
You're basically getting back to classic BUG Aluren lists. The point is that Aluren is and will always be slow, so your best (only ?) bet is to build and treat it as a control deck with a combo finish, which was the essence of the original BUG lists before Recruiters came out. I guess I'm just a bystander telling you that, in my opinion, this is the only way the deck has a chance to not just be a subpar version of something else, and that you are right to do so.
Agreed. I am wholly committed to BUG. So far I've tested my version with Hierarch & TNN against RUG, Death n Taxes, Sneak n Show, and UB Reanimator (based on the assumption by many that the UB build will become more popular again without Shamans in the meta - an assumption that may not prove to be true given how fast and effective the BR version is now)
Results (for anyone who cares, feels like this thread is becoming a long conversation with myself LOL)
*Sneak n Show - very strong, I'd say odds in my favor. Post board I get even meaner with 2 Diabolic Edicts and 1 needle.
*Death & Taxes - lots of game, at least 50% or greater odds. Even more with TNN and Thoughtseize to pick whatever they get with Stoneforge. D&T always has the potential to lock you down with early Port/Wasteland/Thalia but when they don't do that I seem to win a lot more. Post-board I have a great plan with 3 Decay, 1 Push, 1 Needle, 1 Jitte, and 2 Dread of Night (2 because we have a lot of D&T players in Georgia). When I see at least 1 Dread of Night I almost always win
*RUG - Can be tough main with no Decays. If they don't hit me with early Stifle and Wasteland I can stabilize, especially if they lead with a Nimble or Goyf instead of Delver. Post board I get much stronger. Board out the Alurens, Thoughtseizes, and 2 Harpies and bring in 3 Decay, 1 Push, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Carpet of Flowers (which did earn its keep and will stay in the board in the number of 1 for now), 2 Surgical (not 100% sure I like it yet but it helps me nuke their creature force), and 1 Jitte
*UB Reanimator - Some game, but odds in their favor. Much weaker without Shaman game 1 and they can often power through my 4 THZ 4 FOW defenses. Post board things get a lot better of course. I bring in 2 Diabiolic Edict, 3 Surgical Extraction, 1 Faerie Macabre. Macabre has been so good I almost want 2 of it. Can't be countered and prevents them from beating Surgical by having 2 creatures for Exhume
***Would love anyone's feedback on graveyard configuration for the board by the way. Below is what's on my mind:
Current board:
3 Surgical
1 Faerie Macabre
Considering:
A) 2 Surgical, 2 Macabre
B) 1 Surgical, 3 Macabre
C) 2 Surgical, 1 Macabre, 1 Cage
Macabre is so good I might want more than just 1. It beats any counterspell in addition to Chancellor of the Annex. I have even lost games where I have turn 1 Surgical because the BR player Chancellored me! The drawback is that it doesn't completely remove threats from my opponent's deck. Stripping all Punishing Fires or Life from the Loams is very important. Without a TNN in play punishing decks can eat us alive.
On that note...while Surgical is strong v lands/punishing decks, it's not the best card v Chancellor/Daze, counterspells, or Dredge. Dredge has so many cards you want to hit that Surgical can be underwhelming.
I love that Cage completely owns Dredge and Reanimator while in play. The problem is it does absolutely nothing versus Loam or Punishing strategies and loses to Daze and Chancellor of the Annex. It's a nice bonus that Crane can find a Cage.
Thoughts anyone?
Last edited by Threat_Jammer; 07-09-2018 at 01:33 AM.
I did this tonight and went 3-0 at my local legacy night.
2-1 DnT, Eldrazi and Storm, so 6-3 in games. Felt pretty good, although I did sort of miss the other Ponder a bit. Or possibly the other Shardless. Something was ever so slightly off, but I couldnt quite put my finger on it. I think I'll try a Brutality over 1 TS and maybe Shardless over the 4th TNN. Although beating down with TNNs won me at least 4 games.
I am pleased with these changes overall!
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Glad to hear it!!! I went back up to 4 Shardless and cut Ponder altogether so I can still have 4 TNN. I don't miss Ponder too much since I still have 1 Sylvan Library and 4 Brainstorm. The thing I don't like about Brutality over THZ is it's not a turn 1 play against fast combo and won't hit things like Batterskull or Emrakul. And with no Deathrites I don't think dealing 2 damage is as important.
What's in your sideboard?
Last edited by Threat_Jammer; 07-13-2018 at 12:26 PM.
Living Wish sucks.
This is a sweet stream of Aluren by TruKnightmare: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/283992717?t=34m58s
I like his version with Veteran Explorer and am trying a similar build with 10 fetchs, 1 Bayou, 1 USea, 2 Tropical, and 2 of each BUG basic. I switched one Veteran Explorer for a Ponder.
I would love to see your full 75 actually. I am going off memory here, since I am not near my cards at the moment, but my list is something like:
20 lands
4 Baleful Strix
3 Cavern Harpy
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Glint-Nest Crane
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Aluren
SB: (so this is pretty atrocious and I threw it together in a bit of a hurry based on what I thought would see - usually DnT, T1 Blood Moon decks, Delver and Miracles)
2 JTMS
1 Engineered Plague
2 BEB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Jitte
1 Marsh Casualties (I wanted to test it out and it did win me a game vs DnT, but could still probably be Dread of Night or another Engineered Plague)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 something I am forgetting right now
The BEBs were pretty useless, as I played against DnT, Eldrazi and Storm. JTMS also did not feel that great, but the Engineered Plague was awesome vs both DnT and Storm (blanked his Empty that he had in hand). Jitte I wanted to try vs DnT/Stoneblade/RUG Delver, but I did not get a chance to. Decay still felt sort of necessary in a fairly open meta, and I did get to hit Sanctum Prelate and SoFI with it, so I feel good about keeping those in. There was almost no combo or Blood Moon in the room, so the BEB/Flusterstorm slot is still up for debate. I think the Marsh Casualties will stick around for now, too.
What do you think? I do want to find a place for Sylvan Library now that you mention it. Also I could see a Liliana, The Last Hope finding its way in here somewhere. Maybe instead of a JTMS.
why Noble Hierarch and no paradise birds?
we don't play white card but we play black spells
It doesn't matter that Noble doesn't produce black. I thought it would but lots of testing proved otherwise.
We only need one black in the first few turns, which is easy enough to produce. Even if you fetch to basic forest and cast Noble t1, you'll almost always have the ability to produce U, G, or B by t2. And with fetches you're often able to produce all 3 colors with just basic lands by t2.
Moreover, exalted makes every creature (especially TNN) much more aggressive. This extra damage is a decent substitute for DRS's life loss ability.
I ended up cutting Liliana, The Last Hope from the board because of the BB but don't miss her much. She was a nice bonus to the deck but not essential to its success. I went up to 2 Dread of Night, which is way faster and nukes Death n Taxes
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