Is there a more up-to-date primer or matchup guide anywhere online? I enjoyed reading the OP for this thread because I remember what Legacy was like in 2005 (Tivadar's Crusade 2good4me), but I'm really interested in how the deck measures up against the field right now.
https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...-deck-guide-2/Originally Posted by cdnza
this is the closest to a primer but current builds are the wubg with recruiter of the guard, rubg with imperial recruiter, and bug aluren. With the new the reprint of recruiter i"m sure we shall see more lists with r but the current best build is Cartesians which is a bug version.
Hi guys!
I don't know much about Aluren and really like the BUG version and the concept of a Shardless control deck with a looming combo threat. The Harpy interactions really intrigue me as well. I've read the primer but didn't find anything relevant or updated so here I go:
3 or 4 Aluren? I understand the Recruiter versions want 4 copies because they are much more all-in on the combo plan. For a BUG control version that wants to play a value game and have this "Oops I win button", is playing 3 copies acceptable? Is the 4th copy clunky? Is playing less than 4 Aluren a crime as it wins way more games than the second/third copy would lose?
How many Harpies? I see Recruiter lists playing only 1 copy (makes sense) but the BUG version play 3-4. I understand how good Harpy is with Aluren but I want to know how good and how bad Harpy or multiple Harpies are without Aluren? Cascading into Harpy without a value target looks terrible, and so does cascading into a second Harpy. Harpy looks to me like the kind of card I would really like to see only one copy during the game and that I absolutely want when playing Aluren. My intuition is to play 3 Harpy and 3 Aluren and maximize on deck manipulation and flexible disruption.
Do I want 1 or 2 Parasitic Strix? I don't want to draw the card ever outside of comboing out but how do I take advantage of Aluren + Harpy if I lose Strix somehow and the value plan is not enough? Is this a reasonable concern to have? My intuition here would be to play a singleton Clique in the main for that Harpy + Clique + Leo combination where I strip their hand and draw step and ride the value train safely.
Only 3 Decays? With Delver being the premium DtB and many aggro decks at the top tables it seems to me like 3 Decays and 4 Strix as sole removal when all of our threats are so small would make it extremely difficult to take over control of the game. I don't want to be stuck having to rely on the combo avenue to beat the aggro decks of the format with my BUG control deck.
It seems to me like the deck lacks early interaction to have a shot against a varied Legacy metagame. I think I want my version to pack 2-3 Thoughtseize mainboard because TS is probably the best T1 play on G1 I can see this deck make outside of DRS. Knowing your opponent's plan is very important when you have to decide what avenue you want to take. I see some good synergy with Leo and Shardless. Has anybody tried a FoW + TS config in a BUG Aluren deck with Leo? Is the life loss too great? Is it simply not necessary?
How important is Bayou#2? I question this slot because I want to play 8 cantrips and the majority of the deck is blue. I see the only GG card is Aluren and I would probably play 1-2 BB cards in the board yet the deck remains blue at its core. I don't like the 2nd Bayou over another blue dual if I play 19 lands with 2/3 basics not producing blue mana.
What is your preferred GY hate of choice? I think 2 Faerie Macabre and 1 Ooze/Cage is what I want postboard in order to avoid bad cascades with Surgical. Macabre is the fastest and least interactive form of GY hate I can think of.
Thanks!
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Huh? If you're cascading into a Harpy, that means you already have a value target...
Harpy resolves before shardless agent.
You say you don't know the deck but the questions are really good. Not sure if there is a right answer, much depends of your meta but also personal preferences.
Just 1 thing I don't really agree with is about thoughtseize. Without DRS I prefer ponder over thoughtseize as turn 1 because often mana is an issue in this deck. If you go dual thoughtseize then eat wasteland next turn, it might be difficult already while an early ponder often gives me options (and land).
Also, if you go for 3 thoughtseize then check your blue cards count because it might become quite low for FOW, even more if you play the recruiter variant. If you go thoughtseize you could be 'forced' to go cabal therapy instead of FOW. Note that this option is valid, but you end up with another deck.
Good questions Qweerios.
At this point I think 3 Aluren is correct in the BUG version. The threat is stronger than the execution.
3-4 Harpies is correct, even though they are sometimes bad draws if you have nothing to bounce, they are needed for the combo because we have no Recruiters. In the early game the first Harpy is often pitched to FoW. In a long and grindy game, Harpy + Shardless is very strong, even without Aluren. And once you have a Harpy in play, it is actually a decent creature. 2/1 Flying, immune to removal. I usually play 4 Harpy, like you say there should be parity between Aluren + Harpies, so 3+3, and the 4th Harpy picthes to FoW. In fair matchups where FoWs are sided out, we side out some Harpies also.
0-2 Parasitic Strix. I have sometimes played without any combo finisher at all, because Aluren + Harpy + Shardless wins the game 80% of the time anyway, just by brute force value.
Is having a finisher worth it? I can't say for sure. But Parasitic Strix is a half decent creature. If you never want to see your finisher, except when comboing, there are better options than Parasitic Strix.
3 Decays is likely the best number. 4 is a bit clunky, especially with the manabase. If you fetch basic Island and play Ponder, you are still 2 turns away from casting Decay.
Also, if you play Mini Jace, you sometimes get to recast your Decays.
Early interaction in the form of discard is certainly an option. I think which one and how many is still an open question. They do get it in the way of comboing with Shardless.
Bayou#2? I don't think it is essential in any way, but it works for me. You need all three colors in all games, always.
My personal all time favorite graveyard hate is Tormod's Crypt. For it's speed - you can Ponder into it and cast it - and resilience: It's a permanent, so it's safe from discard.
Thanks for the replies!
Ponder doesn't actually interact with your opponent and doesn't benefit from being played on T1. If you want to use land screw as an argument for TS you have to be honest about your assumptions. If you have Ponder and TS in your opener and you want to Ponder, you still can... I am not suggesting TS over Ponder but TS in addition to 4 DRS and 4 Ponder already. The issue with playing only 4 DRS and 4 Ponder as proactive T1 plays is that you are often wasting your turn1 with suboptimal plays (or lack of plays) in favor of having higher CMC cards. This, IMO, is a reciepe for faillure in Legacy.
Regarding Decay, I agree that it is undeniably clunky because it doesn't provide anything to the combo other than space. In a Grixis dominated meta where I expect DRS, Delver and YP to require an immediate answer, is 3 Decays enough? Wouldn't we benefit from the additional breathing space that Decay#4 offers? What about a Murderous Cut if you think the Cascade is too much of a drawback?
I get what you are saying about not needing finishers. In short, the combo finish speeds up the win against combo where they won't interact with the combo chain anyway and against aggro and control, value as a backup plan is always enough. Correct?
Tormod's Crypt seems great but obviously can't be played on T0 mainly for G3 against BR Reanimator or if they reveal 2+ Chancellors. This is where I see Faerie as being superior. Obviously against Dredge and Lands Macabre doesn't have the same impact as Crypt. Either way, I think Surgical is the way to go against Reanimator, Dredge, Loam and especially PFire even though it's a bad cascade. Surgical is also additional combo hate paired with discard spells for Storm and SnT.
I am going to pick up the deck and work on a SB so I will have a lot of questions regarding SB cards coming up. Here's my intended starting list:
Creatures (19)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cavern Harpy
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Parasitic Strix
Spells (18)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Others (4)
1 Sylvan Library
3 Aluren
Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Minister of Pain
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fatal Push
2 Thoutseize
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I am missing a few SB slots and will have to work on my SB map but here are some questions:
How good is Carpet of Flowers? I am thinking as a singleton for those Delver matchups and against control decks when I remove a land.
Toxic Deluge? I opted for Minister of pain because I want the wrath to be one sided and synergy with Harpy.
Whats the point of Clique in the SB?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Hey folks,
Thoughts on tarmogoyf in the current meta? Especially for people on the BUG value plan... Seems like it's a good additional answer vs GDS for Gurmag Angler and other pressure that they apply. Major downside would be that it doesn't pitch to FoW--which is likely more of an issue as I'm also thinking that I'd like to add a singleton Sylvan Library. Current list is below... seeking thoughts on maybe cutting one of the Lilianas and one of the Leovolds for 2x goyf?
Maindeck (60)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Cavern Harpy
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Shardless Agent
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Aluren
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Prowling Serpopard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
2 Back to Basics
I like the idea too about Tarmo, i am trying that :
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Aluren
4 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
3 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Island
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
4 Shardless Agent
1 Swamp
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vendilion Clique
Is anyone else still tinkering with the Imperial Recruiter version? Interestingly, for a while, I felt it was worse insofar as the "unknown" factor had been lost, but this past week, I played against some people who recognized the deck but were only used to the BUG version and planned for a different grind than they got.
Creatures (23)
2 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
2 Coiling Oracle
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dream Stalker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Minister of Pain
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Shardless Agent
Other Permanents (4)
4 Aluren
Spells (12)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
Lands (21)
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Engineered Plague
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fire Imp
3 Force of Will
1 Hostage Taker
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Null Rod
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
I haven't played Aluren in a long time, but having played some of these cards in Food Chain, here is my experience:
Carpet of Flowers is great for speeding up the clock against any blue deck that applies pressure quickly. Delver is the primary example, but I would bring it in versus Deathblade, Merfolk and other decks you will probably never play against (lol, so mostly Delver). Even shaving a turn off the clock by getting your creatures or Aluren out quicker, can be all you need sometimes. I personally really liked it, and suggest keeping it.
Deluge is more catch all board reset that CAN kill an Angler, Deathrite Shaman, Flipped Delver, Stoneforge Mystic, Misthollow Griffyn, every Elf, etc. While it's mostly used paying 1 life, the times where you need it to kill something scary, it's fantastic. I've heard fable of someone gaining life off of Strix, and going -20 to kill a Marit Lage. This will probably never happen, but at least it's possible, right?
Clique has been an all star for me, in both decks. I play it main in Food Chain, it's that good. It grabs a combo piece, tucks a Life from the Loam, eats a removal spell and has an aggressive stat line so you can start laying into them once you disrupt their game plan. Also, if you play Recruiter of the Guard, you can tutor it up in a pinch.
Hope that helps!
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
I didn't get a response on this, but I winged it and took Aluren to FNM and ended up finishing 1st. I played Miracles (2-0), a mono black ramp deck (2-0), and B/R reanimator (2-1). I was missing 1 Leovold and an Underground Sea so I used a Maelstrom Pulse and Forest in place of them.
Miracles (2-0):
Game 1 I won on the back of Shardless Agent value into a Liliana, the Last Hope ultimate.
Game 2 I sided in the 2x Carpet of Flowers and a Thoughtseize. He played more aggressively and cast an Entreat for 2 angels on a natural draw on his turn. I had Aluren in hand and a Force plus something to pitch. Instead of forcing the Entreat I resolved Aluren on my turn and forced his force to combo off and win the game.
Black Ramp combo (2-0):
Game 1: I wasn't sure what my opponent was playing but it ended up being some sort of combo deck where you make your opponent lose life and mill cards. I played really conservatively game one grabbing basics and forcing things that seemed like combo pieces. I ended up winning via agents, harpies and strix beat down.
Game 2: I had no idea what to do here, so I sided in Scavenging Ooze because it seemed like his graveyard had to do with the combo. I casted Aluren around turn 4-5 and won through at attempt at removal on Cavern Harpy.
B/R Reanimator (2-1):
Game 1: This is one of the most fun games of magic I have ever had and I almost conceded the game (Glad I didn't!). I got 2 DRS online early and I was confident I could just gobble up creatures out of his graveyard as he targeted them. He had 3 creatures in the yard and casted Exhume. Maybe I played this wrong, but I didn't see a way to stop this spell with DRS since it doesn't target. So I ate Elesh Norn and Gristlebrand leaving Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. He drew 7 and whiffed. On my turn I was able to resolve Leovold and I had to dump 3 cards (2 lands and a Parasitic Strix) from my hand going into top deck mode with 2 DRS and a Leovold. Leovold shut off his Jin-Gitaxias and he was top decking for another creature to put in the graveyard. We got like this for a while and he finds and reanimates Sire of Insanity and a Gristlebrand. At that point I had a couple of Strixes I had chained into while top decking. He still hadn't found a way to deal with my Leovold. Eventually, I top decked an Aluren and later found a Cavern Harpy. I bounced Baleful and Shardless to the point of almost killing myself with Harpy triggers and I was able Shardless into a cantrip finding my other Parasitic Strix to combo off and win. It was a crazy fun game and we were both sure I was dead from turn 3 forward and I almost conceded to save time.
Game 2: I think I brought in Tormods Crypt, Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze, Toxic Deluge and Flusterstorm. I keep a hand with DRS but no FOW. He reanimates Gristlebrand while my DRS is summoning sick and proceeds to win easily.
Game 3: I was able to establish 2 DRS and later combo off with Aluren after a little bit of digging with Harpy and Baleful Strix.
I had a really great time and it felt good to finish well even if it is just FNM. I still think I am probably not sideboarding right, not that it mattered since I barely saw my sideboard cards anyway. Just wanted to share my small FNM experience with you guys!
Thanks for the reply on SB questions. I ended up cutting Carpet as its sole utility seemed to be against Delver on T1-2. Clique is a pretty good card in this deck but I'm afraid it has been outclassed by Leovold.
I find Trophy Mage superior to the 2nd Parasitic Strix in every cases. I literally only ever want Parastrix when already comboing off with Aluren and Harpy. It also allows me to find my singleton Bridge much more easily.
Reanimator is the matchup I had the most trouble figuring out a good SB plan for. My current untested configuration involves siding out the Aluren combo in favor of disruptions. Here it is:
Reanimator
-1 Para Strix -4 Decay -3 Aluren -1 Forest
+1 Ooze +2 Surgical +4 Therapy +1 Deluge +1 Bridge
I already have 4 Forces and 2 Thoughtseizes mainboard. I don't know if it's the right way to go but I feel like getting early interaction is more important than hoping for a late combo against an explosive deck like Reanimator.
I can't wait to have my first run with the deck tomorrow and hopefully get to play some Fourth Bridge Prowlers!
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Quoting just this part to state Carpet comes in for me in almost every blue situation. The coolest thing about Carpet is that it ramps you into your combo in matchups where you need to be fast, like Sneak & Show, gives you extra mana to pay for soft permission against Delver, and plays perfectly into the grindy nature of playing against Miracles or *Blade or Czech where you get to outgrind them with every card in your deck being a 2 for 1. Against fair blue decks this card is an absolute nightmare.
Anyway moving on, and not in quote mode anymore, just in reply to the thread in general-
I played Aluren last night with 2 Cranes and an artifact focused sb, planning to be able to dig for high impact artifacts in various matchups when needed with Glint-Nest Crane. It turned out not to be too relevant except against Lands where I needed both Tormod's Crypts and did in fact find them both.
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Baleful Strix
4 Cavern Harpy
1 Coiling Oracle
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Parasitic Strix
4 Shardless Agent
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Ponder
3 Aluren
SIDEBOARD
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chill
2 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Force of Will
I played 20 lands. I cut the 4th Aluren and moved the 4th Force of Will to the side. I played some odd sb cards due to just picking some archetypes I don't want to lose to. I played the second Parasitic Strix because I'm afraid of losing the first somehow, though I admit it's probably better to just play 1. I played a random Coiling Oracle because I like it.
0-2 LOSS
Against Lands I managed to assemble Aluren and keep from drowning against Life From the Loam both games, but never found Cavern Harpies. Extremely frustrating to lose against Marit Lage + Punishing Fire (on blockers) which shouldn't be hard to navigate with this deck but flooded sort of both games without finding Harpies. Was pretty disappointed to go 0-2 because unlike most blue decks in the format Aluren should not have as tough of a time dealing with Lands as most.
2-0 WIN
Sneak and Show round 2 was fun. Lost the die roll game 1 and had no Force for a turn 2 Show. I kept the hand off the backs of a Leovold and a Strix and some cantrips, and did my favorite thing against Show and Tell decks: Show in Leovold. So my opponent is down a card from using a Petal and gets a Griselbrand into play and sees Leovold sitting opposite. He passes. I untap and play my second land and put a Strix onto the stack to hang with Leo and take care of Griselbrand. He responds by drawing 1 card for 7 life and misses Force so it resolves. From there I kill him without a problem and he is mind boggled.
Game 2 on the draw again he Ponders for a while and has a slower hand, only managing to Show in an Emrakul by the time I have a total of 7 permanents including Baleful Strix. Our counter war puts him down to 1 card in hand by the time Show resolves, so the following turn when I get annihilated for 6 and the Strix trades with Emrakul, all I have to do is draw some lands and I rip land into Carpet of Flowers and Carpet easily wins the game from there on.
2-1 WIN
Death & Taxes with Wingmares and Thalia, Heretic Cathar for round 3. This version is running Plateaus and Magus of Moon as well as additional taxing effects, freeing up the space by cutting Stoneforge Mystic. We had tested a few times and this match seems really difficult because of 4 Wasteland, 4 Port, 4 Flying Thalia, 4 Regular Thalia, 2 Big Thalia, + Moon effects. Also he plays Spirit of the Labyrinth which hard counters Baleful Strix chains, turns off Brainstorm and Ponder (mostly) but thankfully does not affect Crane or Shardless Agent. He noted that the taxing effects wouldn't seem to work too well on a deck that's largely just a pile of creatures, and i get a lot of flying stuff, so sometimes it's just a staring match- however the 4 ports and wastelands along with the thalia effects make a large portion of the deck totally uncastable and we die a slow death game 1 after having all our nonbasics wasted and our 3 basics ported every turn until we give up. I bring in 2 Dread of Night and 1 Engineered Plague.
Game 2 I keep a hand with DRS, a basic and some fetches. The only thing it had going for it was that it could make all it's land drops and that was enough of an incentive, as most draws are live after just establishing a manabase. DRS+Lands turned into a Shardless Agent on turn 2 which hit Dread of Night for some breathing room. I land a turn 5 or so Aluren and put a Crane on the stack. He responds by flashing in Flickerwisp targeting Aluren which was smart of him but I already had Cavern Harpy and Parasitic Strix in hand and was only casting Crane as bait.
Game 3 I kept DRS+Lands+Dread of Night and sandbagged it for 3 turns, eventually casting it for 3 against a Thalia, Vrynn Wingmare, and Spirit of the Labyrinth for the dirty KO. This X for 1 (unsure how many cards left in his hand were uncastable after) gave enough time to assemble Aluren plus multiple Strix and Agents and Cranes. We had a few people watching the table that I'm sure were curious why I refused to ever cast my Parasitic Strix in hand and continued just drawing cards and putting creatures onto the table for value without killing him until I found the second wincon, in that I had the luxury of playing around any number of things happening like instant Orzhov Pontiffs or whatever. Eventually I found the second Parasitic Strix with a Crane and when I cast it he responded with a Mindbreak Trap. Revealed the second one in my hand for the concession. Mindbreak Trap is great against Storm but not great against creature combo decks as we rarely have everything on the stack at once.
Last edited by ashent; 04-03-2018 at 01:47 AM.
I also love Carpet against most blue opponents, but be warned: if they have a Leovold out, Carpet will give them a card on your every first main phase and you can’t choose not to. If you don’t add mana first main, it’ll trigger again and give them another card second main. Beware.
Hi, i am playing this list inspire of cartesian list :
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Cavern Harpy
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
1 Parasitic Strix
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Aluren
1 Sylvan
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
And classique sideboard.
I will go to the Birmingham GP, Do you think it's ok? Because in your list Cartesian you didn't not play the Parasitic Strix. I hesitate to cut 2 tourach for +1 tarmo and maybe +1 ponder ou liliana or leovold
Last edited by Cyanhur; 04-05-2018 at 07:37 AM.
What are your thoughts on the list from SCG Milwaukee? The manabase seems less consistent than usual due the duals of choice , and it goes for red as well. Is this solid enough? The results indicate that it performed well, but I'm curious about what people more experienced than I think about it.
Alex Barnett plays red aluren for years with multiple top8's in big events, I think he masters the deck a lot
Well, hello Polly.
Birdie nam nam.
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