Em, yes:Originally Posted by Vetinari
1.) Fast aggro is not a problem. If it were a constant threat to the success of this deck, it wouldn't be established. Walls buy you plenty of time, as do bounce effects.
2.) Sorcery speed discard at one to cast is much better than playing Force of Will and pitching a potentially important creature and/or critical tutor effect to win the game. T.E.S., in my experience playing against the deck, does have a difficult time dealing through sorcery speed discard in the early going. This isn't Solidarity we're talking about. If you don't combo out without protection, then you have to face Orim's Chant and Abeyance.
3.) Then you shouldn't fetch to get your lands putting yourself at risk and play conservative until you can win the game. You play alternate mana producers so that shouldn't be a problem. That's just bad logic.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 05-03-2008 at 12:27 AM.
I am going to be playing in a meta of goblins, Igg, survival, and some janky decks. I was wondering if anyone can help me with the Sb, and how to use it without hurting the deck too much
thanks
-Chris-
Thank you for posting your comment to my FoW-Duress problem.
I found a card that shall be played in this Deck replacing Spike Feeder.
It's Kitchen Finks.
Just see the powerlevel from both cards outside the combo.
Spike Feeder most times is only 2/2 Body +4 Life.
Kitchen Finks are 3/2 Body +2 Life + Persist (Return to game as a 2/1 Body +2 Life when put into GY) You can chump block any fat creature and chump it next turn again.
However, Feeder has the option to pump up your creatures which is important because you get to kill your opponent next turn after pumping your creatures into 100/100's ..
Unless you have another kill option besides pumping up your creatures with feeder which there are with brainfreeze + cloud of fairies or ghitu slinger or whatever is on your mind.
I play
Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms -> infinite carddraw and infinite green mana -> Living Wish -> kill option
I think no one wants to play that deck without a real win option. The Spike Feader kill isn't good.
When you are not playing a real win option your oponent can play pernicious deed and keep it in play or keep a Wrath of God in his hand. So you can't win with your combo with your 100/100-creatures plan.
Also that aditional turn for your opponent can be important if he is playing fast combo.
It's true, no one would want to play a deck without a real kill option.. That's why so many people have only gone into tournaments with feeder.
So what are your kill options that you fetch with Living Wish? I'm not too fond to go through the process of making a heck a lot of mana to pump up my creatures only to let my opponent have one turn to decide their fate either.
I just like Feeder a lot more because it has two options instead of one, it can gain life or pump up your creatures.
Kitchen Finks on the other hand can only gain life unless you can show me a very good way to abuse the persist.
The additional turn has not proven to be relevant in practice because no deck can go through Force of Will recrusion equal to the number of the blue cards left in your deck.
EDIT: Just saw your build and noticed you didn't have FoW in, imo that is a big mistake.
Also, Chain of Vapor proves remarkably good at removing a Deed...
I am just curious about the Imperial Recruiter build. I do not have all of the cards but I have proxied up a few versions and the Recruiter ones seem the best, or at least the most consistent. Also, Goyf Should be in here as an alternate kill option shouldn't it? Recently at my local tournament someone brough Recruiter Aluren and split in the top 4 with it out of about 23-26 people. From all of the builds I have played I liked this one the best. At first the Goyf plan seemed really dumb, Wall of Blossoms should occupy that spot, but then I got to playing the deck and Goyf was a LOT better. Here is my build, it is very standard and based off of a version I found on deckcheck.net and the one I saw at my local tournament:
1x Spike Feeder
1x Cavern Harpy
1x Eternal Witness
1x Ghitu Slinger
1x Man-o-War
2x Dream Stalker
3x Imperial Recruiter
4x Wall of Roots
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Intuition
4x Living Wish
4x Thoughtseize
4x Aluren
1x Swamp
1x Island
2x Forest
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bayou
3x City of Traitors
4x Tropical Island
Sideboard:
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Man-o-War
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Maggot Carrier
1x Bone Shredder
1x Stern Proctor
1x City of Traitors
3x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of the Void
One card I am really wanting to test out in the SB is Leyline of Lifeforce. This deck can struggle with heavy control and occassionally has problems with countertop, so I thought about Leyline of Lifeforce which allows no creature spells to be countered at all by any means (IE counterbalance). Any thoughts from people who have experience with the Recruiter version?
OMG, Goyf takes over another deck
I will admit to never having played Aluren or having played against it in any Legacy tournament. In what matchups does this deck want to go on the beatdown?
Would you not want to leave in at least 1 Wall of Blossoms to allow you to draw your whole deck?
Last edited by revenge_inc; 05-06-2008 at 12:12 AM.
I know, I am so fucking sick of hearing about how good Goyf is and how every deck needs him but really ... he is that good and he is an early wall. The acceleration from Wall of Roots is just simply better than drawing a card from Wall of Blossoms, no argument there. Perhaps a 3/2 or 3/3 split of them would be good? I doubt it but it might be worth testing. But really if you are unable to stick Aluren this deck just does .... nothing and it really is nice to have it if only for the reason of stopping your opponent's Goyfs. This deck can't function very well without Aluren and Goyf just helps it along. Why would you need to draw your whole deck? Recruiter + Aluren = win, why would Wall of Blossoms drawing your whole deck be a good thing if you could just win anyway?
Even if you are not playing any win option, you don't need Spike Feeder.
If I have all creatures in play after the combo the total power is:
3 Imperial Recruiter = 3x 1/1
1 Shrieking Drake = 1/1
1 Man-o'-War = 2/2
1 Cavern Harpy = 2/1
1 Kitchen Finks = 3/2
1 Eternal Witness = 2/1
and the Walls
= Total Power of 13
+ 4 Tarmogoyf = 4x */*+1
Tarmogoyf must be only 2/3 to make 21 Damages in one attack.
That means Feeder is not needed.
What shall I cut for 4 Force of Will? Thoughtseize? Living Wish?
Is the Amount of blue cards enough to play 4 FoW? There are 4 Brainstorm, 4 Intuition, 3 other FoWs 1 Stalker or Man o War and maybe Chain of Vapors to pitch.
My guess would be to cut the Thoughtseizes and 1-2 more cards for 3 FoW and some amount of Ponder.
The Recruiter version does not need Force of Will. The hand destruction is better. If you are playing the Recruiter version why would you ever cut Living Wish? That is Recruiters 4,5,6,7, never cut that, Force is not necessary. As far as Spike Feeder goes, I think he is amazing and strictly better than Auriok Champion or Essence Warden in that it is not a totally dead card without Aluren in play.
The Goyf plan is nice but I have been playing Wall of Blossoms in his spot and I do really like it. It is not necessary and Goyf is probably a lot better in that slot but I am liking Wall of Blossoms a little more in that spot especially against something like Affinity.
A big plus for Essence Warden is that it reduces combo to 3 pieces: Aluren, EW and Man-o'-War or Harpy. With the meta speeding up this can be very relevant. Not to mention all the little niceties like buying you a turn against EtW tokens.
Lets not forget essence warden's biggest ability, that of making their turn 1 chalice at 1 not only a factor, but a huge problem. Also, despite everyone saying he can save you life by dropping him early, one StP later that doesnt seem like a great plan.
Stick with feeder, he dodges chalice and StP. He chumps, and gains you 4 life in the process. Don't forget that spike feeder can make your goyfs bigger than their goyfs, which is oh so nice. If aluren cannot be found, it can also be used (by hard casting witness / harpy + man-o-war) to pump up a flyer, so you can play shitty faerie stompy for a round.
I see no reason to run warden. He is worse in every situation, except opening with turn 1 warden against ETW. I would rather duress / sieze / therapy / brainstorm looking for FoW or one of those cards.
I don't understand why people are still going gaga over recruiter-aluren rather than any other build. Yes the recruiters make the combo more streamlined and consistent. But it makes it a weaker deck over all.
I would just like someones responce to the following cons
- if you do not splash red in your mana base, then you have 3-4 dead draws until you are ready to combo off.
- I've noticed a lot of recruiter builds ignore familiars, which are a vital draw mechanism, as well as being pitchable to fow, not to mention that they fly.
- if you splash red in the mana base to not make recruiters dead draws, it makes for a really bad mana base.
- if a goblin player has a goblin sharpshooter in his deck, then you better pray you have a fow when you go off, because if you don't then you lost as soon as your dream stalker hits the stack.
- I also noticed a lot of recruiter builds cutting down on the # of harpies. Having more than one in hand is very handy when you need to respond to someones hate.
Most of these points were the main reason why I abandoned recruiter aluren 2 years ago.
Greetings eveyone
This is my first post here, I've been navigating through various forums and this is the first time I see a thread about Aluren 13 pages long. I had to register because I couldn't resist.
I've read the entire thread and found lots of ideas, so I'd like to add some of mine just in case they could seem useful.
I've been playing a non-Recruiter version for some months (hoping to become years), starting from the list Toad showed in his article and adapting it to my tastes:
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Island
1 Underground Sea
5 Forest
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Wall of Roots
2 Man-o'-War
4 Raven Familiar
3 Cavern Harpy
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Aluren
2 Chord of Calling
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
3 Hydroblast
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Research/Development
4 Offalsnout
- Mana base: I've always been obsessed with Wasteland, so I like to have as many basic lands as possible. Besides I saw that having to fetch a Bayou when I just neededcould be an unnecessary risk sometimes, so I added a Swamp. Not all fetchlands here can find it, but I think it's still important. I was also playing with 4 Tropical Islands until I had to play in a tournament with only 2 and didn't notice any difference. That Underground Sea looked good on paper for cases where you may need both colors for the following turns, and I fetch it sometimes indeed. 2 Bayous are okay for me.
- Creatures: mostly unchanged, I made room for the last Wall of Blossoms I usually saw in the sideboard. Even being an explanation for that, I've always thought it's rather pointless anyway. IMHO an additional Wall maindeck shouldn't hinder our development.
- Other spells: after sideboarding Force of Will out in all 7 rounds in a tournament for Pernicious Deeds in 6 of them, my conclusion is that Deeds maindeck should win me more games that Force of Will maindeck and I made the change. I think it depends on the metagame, though, but I'm more satisfied with this configuration. I also made room for 2 Chord of Calling and I like them as well. The fact that they put the creature directly into play is amazing and it's key to winning in many situations, especially when you search a Harpy.
- Sideboard: Harmonic Sliver is a dead card without Aluren in play, but I don't think we need it before that. Besides it can come into play via Chord of Calling. I use it as an answer to general hate in the form of artifacts and enchantments (Pithing Needle, Engineered Plague, Rule of Law, etc.) because it's easy to bounce and replay as many times as needed. Force of Will can't be cut entirely because it's necessary against fast combo decks. I started playing Research / Development a long time ago mainly to recover extirpated Alurens, although it could also bring sideboard cards if necessary; now that Extirpate doesn't appear x4 in every sideboard in my metagame, this card is getting gradually useless to me. I'd run just 1 now, or even cut it out completely. Offalsnouts are there to answer Ichorid decks since they're increasing in numbers; I think Leyline of the Void could be equally effective.
About Imperial Recruiter, when I started to see Aluren lists with it I didn't like them. Almost all my main reasons have already been explained, Recruiter is red and adding another color makes the mana base more vulnerable to Wasteland, but what I don't really like is that in contrast to Chord of Calling, the creature you search with a Recruiter goes to your hand. That's a serious drawback for me, since I've won several games thanks to the creature being put directly into play. You can always try building a stable 4-color mana base, but Recruiter's ability can't change.
Despite all of it, I ended up guessing I had to give it a try. A friend of mine had bought 4 Recruiters a long time ago (when they were a lot cheaper) and lends me them if necessary, so I just had to think of a decklist I'd like. I started from the previous list and thinking the lesser elements I cut completely, the better. After looking at some lists again and with some cards I previously knew, I ended up with this:
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
5 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Volcanic Island
4 Tinder Wall
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Wall of Roots
1 Spike Feeder
2 Eternal Witness
3 Raven Familiar
2 Arctic Merfolk
1 ??? (Ghitu Slinger / Etched Oracle / Man-O'-War / Bone Shredder)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Harmonic Sliver
3 Force of Will
2 Offalsnout
3 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
2 Etched Oracle
- Mana base: the changes are minimal because red is here just as a little splash. The only card I see as mandatory is Volcanic Island since it's the only interesting Mountain that all fetchlands in the deck can find. That Taiga is there because
is interesting, but I think we could replace it with another Tropical Island or fetchland and nothing would happen.
- Creatures: I refuse to run less than 7 Walls, but now that
- Other spells: I miss Chord of Calling, however Recruiters aren't bad substitutes, despite that drawback I'll never like. The rest stays the same. Pernicious Deed still helps, especially against aggro-control.
- Sideboard: I feared cutting Offalsnout completely, but I think I should do it and add the last Force of Will again. IMHO Pyroblast is good against Ichorid, Landstill and maybe IGG, but I must test it. Etched Oracle should be good against discard decks, but still don't know. Most new cards here are untested yet.
About the cons just listed above:
Agreed.- if you do not splash red in your mana base, then you have 3-4 dead draws until you are ready to combo off.
I think it doesn't have to. Red as a splash needs just 1-2 lands, and other duals aren't necessary enough to run more than 2 copies. I play with 6 fetchlands, 8 basic lands, 6 duals, and with 8 Walls that produce additional mana. IMHO it's good for a 4-color deck.- if you splash red in the mana base to not make recruiters dead draws, it makes for a really bad mana base.
Completely agreed, it's important not to cut one of the few creatures with flying. Recruiters don't obsolete Ravens since they can find noncreature cards and still combo out if Recruiters aren't there for some reason.- I've noticed a lot of recruiter builds ignore familiars, which are a vital draw mechanism, as well as being pitchable to fow, not to mention that they fly.
It depends on how many goblin decks are in a tournament, how many of them run Sharpshooters, and how many times the opponent gets to play them. Highly relative situation I guess.- if a goblin player has a goblin sharpshooter in his deck, then you better pray you have a fow when you go off, because if you don't then you lost as soon as your dream stalker hits the stack.
IMHO Harpies curse the deck. It's paradoxical that the most dead card in the deck while not comboing is also the first one we want to have in hand when Aluren is in play. Aluren should read "When Aluren comes into play, search your library for any number of cards named Cavern Harpy, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then shuffle your library" in addition to its actual ability. I guess Recruiter versions can run just 1 if they want and do so because they prefer running 1 and play it after all other creatures (thus risking to lose) than running 3 and risking to have some dead in hand long before comboing. I think both ways are correct and both are incorrect. Since we can't reach a middle point with the cards we have right now, we'll have to choose one until Wizards release some sort of a solution. For now I prefer 1 Harpy and use Arctic Merfolk to help.- I also noticed a lot of recruiter builds cutting down on the # of harpies. Having more than one in hand is very handy when you need to respond to someones hate.
P.D: Excuse my bad English
I like your first list the most, obviously
It's interesting about your comments concerning deed. A friend of mine who also plays aluren came to the same conclusion and replaced forces with deed. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
I have actually been considering maindecking 2 deeds for a while, and never got around to trying it out. Its a decent idea, if your meta calls for it. The only problem i see is that relocating forces to the SB might lead to alot of problems. Despite the shortcomings of the card, it is a key piece of the deck.
I plan on trying out something like:
1 Spike Feeder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Cavern Harpy
2 Man-o'-War
1 Dream stalker
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Roots
4 Raven Familiar
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Aluren
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress / thoughtsieze
2 Pernicious Deed
If you run deed in the main, your already putting a heavier reliance on black, so why not just run duress / thoughtseize as well. One main issue with these in place of FoW is that reliance on black, but with deed it almost justifies it. You need to switch up the mana base a little, but it looks decent in theory.
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