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Thread: [Deck] Aluren

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toad
    counters are higly irrelevant for a deck with 4 cabal therapies and enough creatures to flash it back.
    They are not irrelevant. You have to take them into account. Threshold runs Counterspell, Force of Will and Daze. And Meddling Mage for the white builds. That means you can never goldfish turn 3 or 4 over these, even with a Cabal Therapy. So you have to wait a bit and go into later game. That implies using Force of Will to deal with threats.
    got me there
    ;-)

    but against decks like threshold and even more against landstill it's not needed to combo on turn 3 - 4

    daze is far from a hard counter by the way and any decent player can play around that
    so that leaves only counterspell and force to neutralize as true countering problems

    and when they are tapped out
    only force

    so therapy + flashback can take of that

    In all honesty,
    I think meddling mage is far more anoying than any counter
    so maybe against that your idea of force of will is not that bad
    (I usually have to rely on boneshredder or deed to get rid of them)

    anyway,
    let's agree to disagree on a few choices for the deck (just like some builds of other decks differ depending on the approach)
    and congrats again in proving that aluren can perform in legacy

    PS
    I hope us Belgians will not have the biggest GP ever but I fear it will be for the simple reason there will be side event prereleases of guildpact and because Ravnica block sealed is just WAY more fun than champions sealed
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  2. #22
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    Yep, you missed Cabal Therapy naming Brain Freeze
    Well, that doesn't convince me very much... if you don't draw one of your three Therapies, you're pretty much screwed. Have you actually tested the Solidarity matchup? How are your win percentages on that?

    I understand your point that Solidarity won't actually be dangerous to the deck, since it's not played that often... but I'm just curious on how your testing results on this matchup actually were.
    Sometimes you have to read between the minds.

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  3. #23
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    You can Intuition for Therapies and just crush your opponent's hand without much issue.
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  4. #24
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    Could be yeah. Also, I didn't find your decklists in some forum here, so I don't know if you are playing builds with Man'O-Wars and Spike Feeder or builds with Wirewood Savage and Soul Warden likes. These builds are extremely different to pilot, so a year of experience with these is really nothing. They only have their core card in common, but play totally different.
    I've been playing the kind that goldfishes twice as fast as yours with as much disruption. The kill condition doesn't matter.

    Landstill's "unrestricted Ancestral Recall" is hot against first turn Goblin Lackey, first turn Aether Vial or first turn Nimble Mongoose. Landstill's "unrestricted Ancestral Recall" is also hot after the opponent dropped his turn 2 Lightning Rift. It's also awesome to have that on the board when your opponent is going to Cabal Therapy 3 times in a row.
    And in EVERY SINGLE OTHER SITUATION, it's an Ancestral Recall. You can't discuss the worst possible situations to use a card.

    But whatever, Aluren outdraws Landstill.
    Aluren can outdraw Landstill? That's pretty difficult, seeing as how Aluren runs NO CARD ADVANTAGE SPELLS AT ALL.

    Cabal Therapy is so much better than Counterspell in billions of matchups you know?
    It does wonders against a Ringleader ripped off the top. Or, for that matter, a Sphere of Resistance, a Glowrider, a Rule of Law, an Arcane Laboratory, Pyrostatic Pillar, Pithing Needle, Engineered Plague, Meddling Mage, etc.

    Are you really telling me you are planning to resolve a Wrath of God, a Moat or a Humility against Threshold's 4 Force of Will, 3 Counterspells, 3 Dazes?
    When I have 4 Wraths, and 2-3 Moat/Humilities, and 8 Counterspells, yes.

    Are you telling me that resolving a Chain of Vapor on Meddling Mage against Gro's counterwall is easier with your far more meager disruption package, draw engine, and threat base? Let me remind you that you have to find the Chain first.

    Ah, and Wall of Blossoms is a board Control card that cantrips and has synergy with Cabal Therapy. Good luck doing something useful with Swords to Plowshares and Wrath of God against MWC, WR Rift, High Tide, Belcher, Ill-Gotten Storm, Confinement, Aluren and some others.
    OMG Landstill has bad matchups against storm decks and cycling decks? YOU BLEW MY MIND!

    It's a good thing those are a lot less prevalent than, say, aggro decks and aggro-control decks, which your deck topples over to like a drunk on a unicycle.

    When playtesting the Aluren vs. Landstill matchup, nothing was more funnier to see Landstill with a hand full of powerful control elements like Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, Akroma's Vengeance and others when going off through Cabal Therapy.
    When playtesting the Aluren vs. Goblins matchup, I found that I died about three turns faster than I could assemble the combo. Tell me how knowing the stack will solve that problem, mmkay?

    I doubt so. Proof for that is easy, I just have to read your feelings after your early goldfishing cessions.
    It's not rocket surgery. You choose the card that keeps you going off, like Chain, Manowar, Harpy, or Familiar. Unless you roll a Chord or a feeder, in which case you take those. There is absolutely no skill involved in going off at that point. It's not like you have to make any difficult decisions. It either helps you find the combo, is the combo, or isn't. The problem lies in that finding double 2-ofs requires you to search through pretty much your entire deck, which saps a significant total of life. I foudn that about half the time, I could continue the combo, and half the time I couldn't. That is seven life right there.

    You still haven't answered me with your strategy for fighting against fast aggro decks that play burn spells.I'm interested to know why you don't get completely massacred by those decks, seeing as how they kill you about two turns faster than you kill them.
    -Slay
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  5. #25

    And in EVERY SINGLE OTHER SITUATION, it's an Ancestral Recall. You can't discuss the worst possible situations to use a card.
    Well last time I checked, every single top Legacy deck packed either 4 Aether Vial, or 4 Goblin Lackey, or 4 Lightning Rift, or 4 Nimble Mongoose. Standstill is a rather bad cards when all the best decks run 1cc or 2cc drops that completely negate your draw engine.

    Aluren can outdraw Landstill? That's pretty difficult, seeing as how Aluren runs NO CARD ADVANTAGE SPELLS AT ALL.
    Intuition? Cabal Therapy? Manual Raven Familiar recursion with Cavern Harpy or Man-O'War? You have never playtested the matchup right? Note that I'm not even mentionning the completely dead 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Wrath of God, 1-2 Moat.

    When I have 4 Wraths, and 2-3 Moat/Humilities, and 8 Counterspells, yes.
    Since you need to cast Wrath of God before turn 6, Counterspell is irrelevant there. That means you are left with 4 Wrath of God, 2-3 Moat or Humility, 4 Force of Will against a deck with 4 Force of Will, 3 Daze, 3 Counterspell. 10 threats vs. 10 solutions. That could be considered as even, except that since Landstill's draw engine is absolute crap against Threshold and since Threshold as virtual access to twice more copies of its card than they run becasue of their cantrip density, that's not even a close match.

    Are you telling me that resolving a Chain of Vapor on Meddling Mage against Gro's counterwall is easier with your far more meager disruption package, draw engine, and threat base? Let me remind you that you have to find the Chain first.
    Well, if you don't see why resolving a 1cc instant is easier than resolving a 4cc sorcery, there is nothing I can do for you.

    When playtesting the Aluren vs. Goblins matchup, I found that I died about three turns faster than I could assemble the combo. Tell me how knowing the stack will solve that problem, mmkay?
    Knowing the stack will not probably help, but knowing how to play Aluren will. I got around 200 games of data in the Aluren vs. Goblins matchup, sideboarded or unsideboarded. Overall results are 55-45 in favour of Aluren.

    You still haven't answered me with your strategy for fighting against fast aggro decks that play burn spells. I'm interested to know why you don't get completely massacred by those decks, seeing as how they kill you about two turns faster than you kill them.
    We never tested this matchup. Pierre had to face a Zooish deck and 2-O'ed him. Wilfried had to face a GWR Aggro deck and 2-O'ed him too. That's the only data I can provide about these decks.

    I actually find funny that someone who was only able to *goldfish* the deck for a couple of times keeps saying that a deck is shit when two pros Top32'ed at the biggest Legacy event ever after going 7-1-1 Day1 and playtesting with the deck for about 6 monthes.

  6. #26
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    Well last time I checked, every single top Legacy deck packed either 4 Aether Vial, or 4 Goblin Lackey, or 4 Lightning Rift, or 4 Nimble Mongoose. Standstill is a rather bad cards when all the best decks run 1cc or 2cc drops that completely negate your draw engine.
    While that is a good point, it still stands that in every other situation it's an Ancestral Recall. A conditional Ancestral that happens to be bad in some key situations sure seems a hell of a lot better than having Wall of Blossoms be your primary draw engine.

    Intuition? Cabal Therapy? Manual Raven Familiar recursion with Cavern Harpy or Man-O'War? You have never playtested the matchup right? Note that I'm not even mentionning the completely dead 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Wrath of God, 1-2 Moat.
    You seem to have this idea that I'm talking about the Aluren vs. Landstill matchup. I'm not. I'm talking about the strength of the two decks against the format. This arose when you mentioned Landstill as a control deck that didn't kill before turn 8. I said that Landstill wasn't a crappy control deck like this one.

    Intuition isn't card advantage. Unless you find Cabal Therapies with it. It's a tutor.

    Cabal Therapy is card advantage only if you hit a two-of in the other guy's hand, and only if they play things worth hitting while they are still in his hand.

    Raven Familiar recursion with Harpy or Manowar only counts in a specifically literal sense. I don't consider paying 2UUB for a single card useful in any situation.

    Since you need to cast Wrath of God before turn 6, Counterspell is irrelevant there. That means you are left with 4 Wrath of God, 2-3 Moat or Humility, 4 Force of Will against a deck with 4 Force of Will, 3 Daze, 3 Counterspell. 10 threats vs. 10 solutions. That could be considered as even, except that since Landstill's draw engine is absolute crap against Threshold and since Threshold as virtual access to twice more copies of its card than they run becasue of their cantrip density, that's not even a close match.
    Gro's maximum goldfish is turn 6. I'm not sure why you think I "need" to resolve a Wrath before turn 6, when in most cases they kill after it. Also note that as Landstill, I have plenty of tools to stem their assault like F/I, Sword, manlands until I get the mana to resolve a bomb successfully.

    Well, if you don't see why resolving a 1cc instant is easier than resolving a 4cc sorcery, there is nothing I can do for you.
    Because I'll be able to find the 4cc Sorcery. While you're doing dumb crap like casting walls and praying you topdeck a Chain(or, I suppose, an Intuition, if you don't mind letting all your hopes rest on the resolution of two concurrent spells), I'll probably have a 4cc bomb in my hand and draw another within 3-4 turns. I'm not giving Gro's cantrip engine time to set up into a God hand, because I'm casting relevant spells. Note I also have stuff like Fact or Fiction that finds these spells and many other useful tools to help them resolve.

    Knowing the stack will not probably help, but knowing how to play Aluren will. I got around 200 games of data in the Aluren vs. Goblins matchup, sideboarded or unsideboarded. Overall results are 55-45 in favour of Aluren.
    Tell me what your gameplan against a resolved Piledriver is, besides throw walls in front of it and hope you topdeck the combo. Because that sure as hell was mine. And it failed quite magnificently, I can assure you.

    We never tested this matchup. Pierre had to face a Zooish deck and 2-O'ed him. Wilfried had to face a GWR Aggro deck and 2-O'ed him too. That's the only data I can provide about these decks.
    They're better players than 99.99% of the magic community. That number isn't for hyperbole. I tested the matchup, it was just as horrible for Aluren as the Goblins matchup was. And without three byes, people will be running into that matchup a lot more frequently.

    I actually find funny that someone who was only able to *goldfish* the deck for a couple of times keeps saying that a deck is shit when two pros Top32'ed at the biggest Legacy event ever after going 7-1-1 Day1 and playtesting with the deck for about 6 monthes.
    That is irrelevent, and total worthless bullshit for reasons I have already stated.

    I suppose none of my criticisms of this deck are going to matter to you, since you clearly have some kind of Super Secret ZOMG Tech® that somehow adds 25% to every matchup you play. Maybe some day when I've played the same damn obsolete combo deck for three more years I too will be entitled to recieve the Super Secret ZOMG Tech® and instantly turn any crappy deck into one that makes it into the money at a large event!

    ...Or maybe Canali just rode his playskill into the T32, and Aluren actually sucks.
    -Slay
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  7. #27

    Quote Originally Posted by Slay
    ...Or maybe Canali just rode his playskill into the T32, and Aluren actually sucks.
    All the players who took Aluren at the GP made Top32. 2 out of 2. In a 900 players tournament. I won 4 tournaments with Aluren when preparing for the GP, 2 of them being undefeated in games and facing decks you claim to be awful matchups, such as R/G beats or Three Deuce.

    So calling a deck "obsolete" and "crap" is rather pointless. You can't deny facts. Maybe the playskills the deck requires are far above your skills. Aluren is not to be put in the hand of every player. I saw billions of players claiming that Aluren was crap during the last Extended season because they had terrible results with the deck. In that situation, the problem is not always the deck.

    If you are not able to post anything else but bad flames and arguments showing you don't understand how the deck works, please refrain yourself from posting here.

  8. #28
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    I have never respected Aluren, couldn't tell you the last time I lost to it, and wouldn't play it if you paid me. But you can't argue with the results of the GP. The archetype needed a facelift; Toad and associates gave it one and the deck performed well. It deserves to be discussed in an intelligent and respectful manner.

    Slay, your remarks are more attacks than worthwile discussion. Quit the flaming or we'll issue warnings.
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  9. #29
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    I would argue that the best deck in the format right now is one of the Thresh variants. If you look at the decklist on paper, it looks like total crap. Look at Landstill, and it's a bunch of slow control elements that don't seem like they could beat anything. I'm not even going to go into MWC, or decks like Fish. So if we assume that "Looking Really Bad On Paper" = "Really Good Deck" then this right here is the best deck I've ever seen.

  10. #30

    Here's just a general comment, because I have no idea if the deck is good or not (although I do like the card Aluren, and I'm glad people are playing with it)

    Don't underestimate the power of surprise.....If your opponent doesn't know what you're doing, you gain a big advantage, perhaps enough of an advantage to overcome whatever the deck's shortcomings might be

    So for a pro (or, any good player, really) to take an "inferior" but still pretty good deck to a large tourney, where many players will have never seen the deck, or only have vague knowledge of it, is a pretty good strategy....Aluren at GP: Lille is probably a good example of this happening....

    You'll win games because your opponent may disenchant the wrong thing, or when they duress, they'll pull out the wrong card, etc.....Or they'll attack without even reading what your creature is (I know it's hard to believe, but I've seen otherwise competent players do this, because they start assuming)

    A lot of times, I get wins when my opponent doesn't read my cards, and they are surprised at what the cards did....

    You'll almost never see that happen with Goblins....Everyone knows how to play against it because it's so familiar.....Hell, they can probably tell what you're casting just by what mana you tap...

    So perhaps if you have a pretty good deck, but has obvious weaknesses that can't be cured (Aluren is a three-card combo seems to be a pretty good argument against it), it might behoove you not to bring it up on message boards :)

    I have a deck that falls into this category, and there is no way I would ever post it on a message board for people to savage it....I'm going to try it out at a tourney next month, and we'll see what happens

  11. #31

    Even after reading your arguments on the matter, both here and on TMD, I still feel uneasy about passing the turn after going off. Although there don't appear to be many situations where the extra turn or the lack of a combo kill matter, it still feels like taking an unnecessary risk. Maybe it just seems that way because of the contrast with previous versions of the deck or other combo decks, but still...

    So after (only) about an hour of test games, I decided to make some minimal changes to incorporate a full-fledged combo kill - without cluttering the list with jank, because, as you stated:

    The deck wants to focus on useful cards, and cut all the fancy stuff for that.
    I do believe that the main advantage this deck has over the faster versions of last season's Extended is the consistency that comes from dropping situational combo elements like Maggot Carrier, Rishadan Cutpurse, Cloud of Faeries or Stroke of Genius. However, it should be noted that those cards typically weren't played maindeck anyway. To prevent dead draws and increase consistency, I usually played at least two Living Wishes, often more, and a toolbox board of combo pieces (Maggot Carrier, Raven Familiar, Auriok Champion,...) , utility creatures (e.g. Eternal Witness), a mana fixer (basic land / City of Brass) and some tech (e.g. Xantid Swarm).

    Granted, it’s a terrible idea to play toolbox in Legacy (slow, unreliable because of FoW, and eats up valuable sideboard space) but with just one or two spots in both maindeck and sideboard, I think the benefits outweigh the sacrifices.

    No Living Wish because it's far too slow for Legacy. On turn 2 you want to stop a Nimble Mongoose or a Goblin Lackey.
    Quoted for truth, but then again, why would you want to cast Living Wish on turn two? As you mentioned:

    Aluren is by nature a slow Combo deck.
    As such, Living Wish does fill a number of holes in the deck’s game plan:

    - It can fetch back a StP’ed combo piece.
    - It can tutor for a missing combo piece.
    - When going off, it can get a game-winning card. This eliminates the risk of having to pass the turn and win through the red zone. It also saves you some time, which shouldn’t be relevant, but might be. Plus, it wins you style points – although I’d hate to think that this is in fact the most important reason for bringing this up (I’ll have to discuss this on my next Johnnies Anonymous meeting).

    Long story short, I plan on making the following adjustments:

    MD: -1 Raven Familiar
    MD: -1 Chain of Vapor / Chord of Calling
    MD: +2 Living Wish

    SB: -3 Eladamri’s Vineyard (In what matchup do you side these in?)
    SB: +1 Maggot Carrier
    SB: +1 Raven Familiar
    SB: +1 Xantid Swarm / Stern Proctor / Pernicious Deed

    This is all pretty obvious, so I'm sure you have considered and dismissed it, but it makes the deck play a lot smoother for me, so I'm intent on testing it in this configuration.

    PS: Congrats on the succesful make-over. God knows the deck needed one...
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  12. #32
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    How did you arrive at the current manabase? Seems pretty vulnerable to Wasteland. And what do you do if you get something like Forest, fetch land in your opening hand, and you need Green, Blue, and Black mana. In testing, the manabase has created a lot of mulligans, and while I haven't tested it against any decks with wastelands, doesn't seem fun.

    I also wanted to respond to Slay and say that I've been comboing out pretty regularly on turns 4 and 5 with this deck. I don't know if that's just luck, but it seems pretty consistant. I've never lose once I resolved Aluren with a Raven Familiar in hand.

    I do like the idea of two Living Wish maindeck. You know, in case they topdeck Obliterate ;)

  13. #33
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    SB: -3 Eladamri’s Vineyard (In what matchup do you side these in?)
    How did you arrive at the current manabase? Seems pretty vulnerable to Wasteland.
    You know, in case they topdeck Obliterate ;)
    Obliterate doesn't destory Aluren.
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  14. #34
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    My big issue is also with the manabase. I lose to wasteland and that makes me sad. I've played this deck versus Goblins and Sligh and would win every game if not for an early wasteland.
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  15. #35
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    Eladamri's Vineyard is pretty good against Wasteland.
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  16. #36
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    I don't really understand your logic in playing Spike Feeder as a lone win condition. It seems as though playing an instant speed win, if only one, would far increase your chances of beating Goblins and Solidarity/any other combo. Noone can argue the fact that Goblins can win in one turn, especially with Aluren on the table. They need one ringleader, then topdeck into one of several cards to do A LOT of damage, I have played this matchup several times, and know this happens a lot.

    I would also like to say that Rishadan Cutpurse is not a card to scoff at. Seeing as this build would have a lot of problems with MD hate, 1 Cutpurse can do wonders. Waiting a turn to win the game is much safer when your opponent has 0 permanents in play. I played a version with Cutpurse and loved it, the card pulls you out of a lot of situations very easily, with Harpy you clear their board for 6-10 life on average, Goblins is one of the only matchups where this doesn't regularly happen.

    I would also like to mention that touting the skill of two individual players does not help improve the format or deck at all. Props to them for doing well, but now if we want to make the deck better, WE have to do well with it. I know there is a lot of skill involved in the deck, and I believe I have some of what is necessary, but know that more practice is needed. So instead of telling people 'the deck doesn't work cuz ur bad' why don't we figure out why it isn't working for that person, because I can guarantee that for every 1 person saying it isn't working, there are 3-4 more agreeing.
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  17. #37
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    Goblins cannot deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage in one turn (through Force of Will recursion).

    If you manage to assemble the combo against Solidarity, you can play (and flashback) as many Therapies as you have black mana, and then they have to get through ~20 copies of Force of Will.

    The only arguement you can make for replacing Spike Feeder with a different kill mechanism would be that the alternate kill is a better topdeck before you combo than Spike Feeder is. The Feeder kill itself seems pretty airtight.




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  18. #38
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    Personally, I'm inclined to think that the variant combo is silly. Aluren in play should win you the game on that turn, barring an Engineered Plague. Trying to win through creatures and combat damage hasn't even lowered the amount of slots dedicated to the combo (the standard Maggot Carrier and Auriok Champion actually opens up slots, which I would fill with Living Wish.) Combat damage is a shaky manner of winning in the first place, and cutting off your ability to Wish for Stern Proctor (a frequent answer to Plague for beasts) feels incredibly wrong.

    The Walls and Forces seem perfectly legitimate, but I just don't see the wisdom in changing the combo.
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  19. #39
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    What's hard to see? Spike Feeder, Wall of Roots, and Man-o-war are all fairly useful before you manage to assemble the combo. Can you provide an actual reason that the Feeder kill is worse than the Maggot Carrier kill?

    Living Wish is a separate debate. The guys who made the deck decided through testing that Wish's benefits aren't worth its drawbacks. The deck already has several answers to things like Plague, between Therapy, Force, and Chain. I won't argue that cutting Wish is correct, but I wouldn't argue against their testing without doing some of my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9
    I can show up whenever I vomit off my hangover and get rid of the passed out females who's naked bodies will be sprawled out all over my condo. Oh wait, I'm engaged. FUCK.

    Well in that case I can be there at like 2 then, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by IAmTheBestEver View Post
    I built my car with my bare hands. It has 32 engines and 17 gas pedals so I can go extra-turbo fast. I sold it for a million dollars and then stole it from the guy using my super computer that can hack into any car in the world as long as I built it. Now I speed down the highway listening to Bruce Springsteen at max volume and flipping off other drivers.

    What are regrets?

  20. #40
    Worst character ever
    Slay's Avatar
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    Sep 2004
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    Newton, MA
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    Mainly the instant-speed of it. If you're playing against Solidarity, you give them the opportunity to respond to a large storm count with Brainfreeze, and there's nothign you can do about it because you don't have recurring Force of Will(unless you play Cloud of Faeries). Even if you Therapy it away, all they have to do is go off enough to find one and it's utterly game over for you. With na instant speed kill, they have to find a Brainfreeze and a Cunning Wish, or you win, and Cunning Wish can be Force of Willed.

    I personally would argue that Brainfreeze is a better kill, just because it's essentially Raven Familiar #5 if you don't draw a Familiar.
    -Slay
    OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL

    Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.

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