Hello, all!
I've started digging into this thread just as mono blue OmniTell has become my second Legacy deck. I've been playing different versions of 12-Post for the last eighteen months or so, but my local meta is unforgiving for the deck. I wanted something that (1) was strong versus Wasteland, (2) could fight or race combo, and (3) let me play my favorite card: OG Emrakul.
I've been mostly learning on-the-fly. I've watched a few YouTube videos but am mostly figuring out how to play blue properly on my own. One dilemma that recently caught my attention, however, is what in the world do you do when an opponent Surgical Extractions your Show and Tells? How do you win? Can you even win anymore?
Thanks for the help and I'm looking forward to digging deeper into this deck!
I'm playing Andrea Mengucci's YouTube list from April 2017:
5 Island
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
6 Blue Fetch Lands
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Volcanic Island
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Omniscience
2 Impulse
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Pieces of the Puzzle
2 Intuition
Sideboard:
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Wipe Away
1 Release the Ants
1 Noxious Revival
1 Through the Breach
2 Sudden Shock
1 Firemind's Foresight
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Intuition
I believe it's all about playing around surgical post board:
Side out intuition
Play carefully around discard and make sure you win the counterwar when you go off
Fight surgical with surgicals of your own or noxious revival
It's also possible to diversify wincons, like dreamhalls
Any changes to UB version?
1) Respond to the opposing Surgical with Cunning Wish into Noxious Revival. Cast Noxious Revival targeting your SnT. Opposing surgical fizzles.
2) Get to 10 mana and hardcast Omniscience.
3) Play the Ub build and use discard effects to get rid of the opposing Surgical.
4) Sb in Boseiju to make your first SnT uncounterable.
5) Board in Misdirection or Divert to turn around opposing discard effect, counterspell or surgical.
6) In the Ur build, move the 4th SnT into SB and run 2-4x Burning Wish MD.
The best black cards to this deck are still
- Tutors (Lim-Dul's Vault)
- Discard (Thoughtseize and Duress)
- Mass removal (Toxic Deluge)
- Single creature removal (e.g. Dismember)
- Graveyard hate (e.g. Surgical extraction, Extirpate)
A great black card which has not been explored properly so far in this deck IMO
- Deathrite Shaman
What new stuff we have got in Amonkhet, Hour of Devastation and Ixalan that might find a place in the 75:
- Sorcerous Spyglass
- Fatal Push
- Scarab Feast
I think that someone ought to try 1-4 DRS in the Ub build. Combined with a fetchland in the graveyard, t1 DRS opens up t2 SnT mana. DRS is also graveyard hate, life gain (if you run a green dual), stalling versus opposing Delve mechanic guys and DRS, and an alternative noncombat win condition. All the while disguising our combo nature as a midrange deck, giving the opponent an incentive to tap out to progress their "losing" board state vs our DRS instead of leaving counter mana open or leading with discard effects. The downside, of course, is that running DRS actually gives a valid target for our opponent's removal spells. It's possible that the downside outweighs the positives, but I would nevertheless like to hear some thoughts.
I'm not the Omnitell expert but it's probably a bad idea to turn on all the removal in your opponent's deck Game 1.
Also, I think having a creature backup plan is fine but it has to be very impactfull (young pyro, TiTi, Mentor, etc). DRS does absolutely nothing for this kind of deck.
Baleful Strix
+ keeps the cantrip chain going post Omniscience
+ can buy us time vs creature decks
+ can block for us if one emrakul swing is not enough to kill the opponent and get rid of his creatures for a lethal backswing
+ pitches to FoW
+ we don't generally mind opponent using removal on the strix since we already drew a card from it
- it's not filtering. It's essentially the same as a cycling effect as a sorcery unless opponent actually has creatures.
- it's not mana acceleration
- it's not a counterspell
+/- cmc 2. goes through chalice 1 but for those 2 mana we could be casting Lim-Dul's Vault to set up a turn three SnT rather than "getting cute".
If we were to run any MD creatures, I argue that it should be either DRS, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique or Baleful Strix. Out of these four, DRS seems like the strongest option to me because it can set up ridiculous turn 2 plays, it can protect us to some extent against opposing Wasteland hitting our duals, it can help us play around opposing Daze game 1, and it's grave hate. With that being said, I am not in favor of a 4-of slot. Just 1-2 copies in the last leftover slots we have in the 60 which seem nearly impossible to fill with something even remotely reasonable. (Pieces of the Puzzle? extra copies of Impulse? Lim-Dul's Vault? Personal Tutor? Intuition? Spell Pierce? Flusterstorm? Lotus Petal? Gitaxian Probe? Toxic Deluge? Stifle? Thoughtseize? They all seem kinda meh, especially in multiples.) And even then, only if we do not have a man-plan in the SB. In my opinion, it's also about mind games of whether the opponent should leave their creature removals in for game 2-3.
I guess you could have a similar argument about Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl, Mirri's Guile, Search for Azcanta or Sylvan Library though, where there is no creature to become targeted, just enchantments. Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl do get hit by Wasteland, though, whereas DRS is kind of semi-anti-Wasteland. Banning the Top makes (preferably colorless) repetitive filtering quite miserable for us. Sylvan Library seems like a viable alternative, but then again, is that really better than LDV at 2 mana? Search for Azcanta seems like a borderline playable choice in a deck without any splash color.
1-2x young pyro, thing in the ice or mentor going from 58-59 cards up to 60 in the MD seems completely bonkers to me. We can not support a 1-2 of reasonably well enough to make the inclusion worth it IMO.
Portent, Predict and Preordain are some additional options for the couple of last slots. Has anyone actually tried Portent yet? I actually like the idea of delayed draw trigger, so you can intentionally hide something from an opposing discard effect (e.g. Liliana +1) using something other than Brainstorm. I like the Christmas land scenario of Portent + Brainstorm at 2 mana, setting up SnT + combo piece both on top to be drawn next turn with only lands and irrelevant cantrips in hand for the opposing discard effect(s).
Another OK-ish black card:
Collective Brutality. More expensive Duress which has an optional mode to kill opposing Thalia or Eidolon of the Great Revel. However, I would play Duress over this and Thoughtseize over Duress.
Just wondering. Any opinions? http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/f...collection.jpg
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
If it was an instant, it could be used as the cmc2 spell for Firemind's Foresight instead of Impulse or Split Decision. It would also double as "grave hate protection", getting played in a Noxious Revival role. As a cmc2 sorcery, it seems inferior to Burning Wish/Young Pyromancer in Ur, Lim-Dul's Vault in Ub and Impulse/Split Decision in monoblue.
You could theoretically run it in a Burning Wish build Wishboard, but when you B.Wish for it, what do you want to get back from the gy? You could be B.Wishing for SnT if you are precombo, or B.Wishing for...Enter the Infinite? if you are postcombo.
Seems worse than Snapcaster Mage in all scenarios (mostly due to flash vs sorcery), and Snapcaster is not good enough for us as it is.
There's a pretty narrow case where you have a Burning Wish in hand and a countered SnT in the graveyard, but other than that, i can't see much of a use for that card.
Yeah, I win like that (I play Grixis, btw). Otherwise, Wish for Dark Petition into Emrakul wins too.
I know what you meant I just didn't explain myself very well.
I meant that there is a very narrow case where you play Burning Wish for your sideboard-4th copy of Show and Tell and then that 4th copy gets discarded or countered.
In that case, if you have a second copy of Burning Wish in hand this card could be useful, because you have no Show and Tell left in your sideboard and probably little to no cantrips in hand.
It's clunky and very narrow, i know: i was just brainstorming around.
I couldn't play at my local league on saturday, but I lent my grixis list to a friend who made it to top4.
When we talked after the tournament, I got this feedback.
- Both Seize and Burning Wish are two very strong cards that are well worth of playing. They solve many problems traditional lists have. First of all, seize is an incredible proactive card. It allows you to combo T3 without needing 4 mana; it's really good to control which permanent they're gonna put down when you cast Show and Tell, because Leovold is a huge problem when you have omniscience. On the other hand, Burning Wish provides consistency, being Show and Tell #4-7; playing the deck with just 4 enablers is sometimes frustrating due to extractions and such.
- The main issue with the deck is that seize and wish put a strain on the manabase. Those cards are to be cast very early in the game to get the maximum effect, and it's not always easy. Sometimes my friend didn't have the right land at the right time. It's probably wise to rise up my fetchland count with a couple of bloodstained mires, and maybe more duals.
- Pieces of the puzzle is very double-edge, because you often mill stuff you don't want to mill.
- Maybe 10 pieces of permission is too much.
- Having a non-combat finisher is not so important in Burning Wish variants, since you can't respond to stuff with it anyway. You just wish for ETI, then use other wishes to clear nasty stuff (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge) then swing. One card between either Dark Petition or Time of Need is absolutely needed to answer Thalia, Gaddock and Leovold.
Overall i'm pretty satisfied with how the deck is performing. It's fast, solid and fun. List is on the previous page (except this time we added a sb duress instead of something).
I agree that Grixis has access to a lot of toys, and toys are nice. However, the weakness of running a Grixis manabase is exposing yourself to a lot of nonbasic land hate. Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, even Price of Progress. Death and Taxes in particular can make casting a SnT a nightmare with Wasteland, Thalia taxation and Rishadan port. Possibly even Vial activation for Flickerwisp in our upkeep to take out one of our lands if the game drags.
Also, casting a Burning Wish for SnT, then passing the turn opens us up to black spot discard spells, and if the opponent brings in a bunch of Surgical Extraction post sideboard, that can get very nasty very quickly.
Your success with a 3 color build will be very much local meta dependant.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)