Message to all SCG grinders finding Show and tell dumb or just wanting to win

[Lejay]

I've just finished and posted a decent sized primer for the omniclash/omnimaniac decks in established decks. Let's put it simply, the deck has positive match-ups against almost the entire field.
Maybe people will adapt by playing its few bad match-ups. but those are very vulnerable to grave hate or the same hate that hits omniclash/omnimaniac.
Maybe people will adapt by playing a lot of hate. But I suspect doing so will be far too binding and targeted to allow those people winning enough overall against the field. There is also the fact that the deck fights hate pretty well and is vulnerable to few.

This deck isn't hulk flash. But whatever happens I think this will result in an unhealthy metagame.

The reason I write this message is the same reason I wrote a very dense primer despite the deck being quite underrated (at least it definitely was before BoM) and information about it being very limited compared to what I gathered. Like many players I don't like show and tell decks because I see very dumb players winning far more than their fair share with it, and the deck is of no interest for someone wanting to play a game of thoughts. At the GP I told most of my opponents that the main reason I worked on it and played it was to get S&T banned.

I almost joined the dark side. Hesitating the last few days about keeping information for myself and just having the advantage of being under the radar while having the best deck. But I prefer to get rid of show and tell as soon as possible and that's why I write to you SCG players.

WotC watches you and you're it's main ressource when it comes to deciding for legacy B&R changes. Survival era proved so. So I need you to realize what the best deck is as soon as possible and play it either just to win more or to serve the cause of getting S&T banned. Even if you don't like dumb decks you have to play that pile to improve the future of legacy.

And to people that will just never change deck and just add sideboard slots, don't forget grave hate. Because there will also be a lot more predators for omnitell variants.

[sdematt]

Post the primer/link to the primer so we can see your testing results.

Omni is pretty good, I'll admit.

-Matt

[Poron]

they have to ban Show and Tell. all the rest is fine. they still have Hive Mind and Dream Halls to hardcast and win instant speed the same.

just ban Show and Tell, please

[LOurs]

Lejay, what you did with the deck is ... at the very least ... huge. I know that you worked hard on the list.
That's important to remind that it's not the first time Lejay is showing us that he's a brillant deck builder beside being a brillant player, see Doomsday deck last year at the BoM.

Recent results are very good reasons to believe what you're reporting here, I just fully agree with your post and I strongly hope it will be useful & followed by people.

cheers (and congrats for the work on the list).

[Vad_]

I can't agree more with Lejay. Let's do this !

[Megadeus]

Im not sure how I feel about trying to get SnT banned. I hate the card but meh. But I will say that if there is any deck that is built to really bust it in half, that mono blue deck is pretty nasty. If I were looking to take down a tourney I would be building that.

[wcm8]

Lejay has made a habit of producing the best configurations of Tier 1 decks, so I wouldn't just dismiss his argument here.

SNT is just a dumb card. Yes, there are drawbacks, and yes there are counters to the strategy. I just think that a 2U ritual that adds 15 or 4BBBB to your mana pool shouldn't be part of this format. The problem as already pointed out is that most veterans of the game don't really seem to enjoy playing the deck because it tends to be a very linear strategy and winning with it feels somehow unsatisfying.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Im not sure how I feel about trying to get SnT banned. I hate the card but meh. But I will say that if there is any deck that is built to really bust it in half, that mono blue deck is pretty nasty. If I were looking to take down a tourney I would be building that.

If the deck is good enough to get S&T banned it is what it is. At the same time I've definitely heard people say they broke the format before and it's rarely true, especially if the format has time to adjust to a new strategy.

He definitely caught people off guard with his deck, I mean everyone was aware their was a S&T deck aside from dropfatty=win.dec but definitely the first thought when I see an opponent play S&T is "here come the Emrakul."

I will say the deck is obviously strong to have top 8'd such an event, at the same time there are a lot of "dead" cards until you resolve S&T or Dream Halls and you still need certain cards beyond that point to effectively make the combo work.

So while the many filter effects definitely give you a lot of game the deck is still effectively a 3 card combo deck in most real game situations, and we will have to wait and see how that works out in the end. The worst thing about S&T right now is that it effectively has 2 different ways to win the game which are hated out by 2 completely different things.

[Hopo]

The worst thing about S&T right now is that it effectively has 2 different ways to win the game which are hated out by 2 completely different things.

And this was already when Hivemind was the best Show and Tell deck. I have no doubts that it's a strong deck. That's what eternal formats tend to spawn. Still, powerful decks come and go.

[Lemnear]

The problem as already pointed out is that most veterans of the game don't really seem to enjoy playing the deck because it tends to be a very linear strategy and winning with it feels somehow unsatisfying.

The point is that we have now reached the anticipated threshold of S&T (which even Griselbrand did not manage to reach) which turned the Trinity of S&T-DreamHalls-Omnicience into a very resiliant auto-pilot-deck on monkey-Level. Our local S&T pilot even increased the redundancy with 6 Sol Lands and 3 FoW/ 3 Intuition maindeck (chop Preordain afaik) to make most matchups a cakewalk, especially with Leylines posboard.

For myself, as an experienced TES pilot, the bare NEED to lucksack against this deck to actually win, is a joke. Sitting behind a Wall of Counters additionally accessible via 3 Wish and 3 Intuition + Leyline while still being able to drop turn 2/3 S&T (Intuition again) is disgusting. I noticed though testing that even Xantid swarm tends to be too Slow as a meaningful Solution to that.

I hate that WotC did to S&T with Emrakul, Griselbrand, Omni and EtI

[ryO!]

pathetic thread is very very pathetic.

regarding the point of it, the deck building skills and the playing skills aren't concerned by my remark.

[dontbiteitholmes]

And this was already when Hivemind was the best Show and Tell deck. I have no doubts that it's a strong deck. That's what eternal formats tend to spawn. Still, powerful decks come and go.

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Seems like everyone swore up and down Hive Mind was the end all then a couple of weeks passed, Stoneforge added tech like Spellstutter Sprite and a couple people added Angel's Grace to their SBs and the deck virtually fell of the face of the earth.

[Julian23]

And this was already when Hivemind was the best Show and Tell deck.

Unlike previous incarnations of S&T, none of this deck's gameplans involves just dropping a fatty and watch your opponent get rid off it. Main reason why "old" S&T was super dumb. No self-respecting player would actually want to put Emrakul into play on turn two...only to see his opponent easily handle it.

[LOurs]

pathetic thread is very very pathetic.
regarding the point of it, the deck building skills and the playing skills aren't concerned by my remark.

Not to agree is not a problem at the moment you explain why.
The opening post provides both argumentary and relevant empirical results. So what is pathetic is to say "pathetic thread is very very pathetic" without more explanation, it is a patent lack of reasonning or respect for the debate.
Next.

[Lemnear]

Unlike previous incarnations of S&T, none of this deck's gameplans involves just dropping a fatty and watch your opponent get rid off it. Main reason why "old" S&T was super dumb. No self-respecting player would actually want to put Emrakul into play on turn two...only to see his opponent easily handle it.

"Old" S&T was "Super dumb" putting creatures into play?

How you call having a single card negating all costs completely (omni) and a single card drawing your deck (Enter the infinite) then?

[Julian23]

"Old" S&T was "Super dumb" putting creatures into play?

How you call having a single card negating all costs completely (omni) and a single card drawing your deck (Enter the infinite) then?

You missed the point. This is not about defending "new" S&T as in any way more skilltesting than "old" S&T. It's about old S&T being much more fragile when 1/2 of its plan was winning by dropping Emrakul. High risk, high reward, super dumb.

New S&T is more straightforward and I would say the hardest part about the deck could actually be sideboarding correctly. Apart from playing your cantrips right ofc.

[rxavage]

Once people figure out how the deck works and learn the match-up it will lose it's power. As far as I know Kroasan Grip, Surgical Extraction, targeted discard, counters etc were all still very common in this format. The deck appears to be slightly more resilient, than other S&T deck atm, in certain aspects but also has similar weaknesses, maybe even a few more due it being a 3+ card combo. If in 2 months this decks wins more often off of a resolved S&T or Halls than other similar decks then we can say this is the best version, and if it beats every deck in the format then we can say it's the best deck. I have my doubts but I will play the deck and find out.

[Lemnear]

The weakness are Enter the Infinite and Cunning Wish. It's still hard to get a hand on those

[sdematt]

There are answers to the deck, but the main problem consists of the fact that if you're JUST playing counters and/or discard and expecting to win, you're going to be shit out of luck. Oh wait, just like Survival. If you autopilot, they'll autopilot on top of you.

To play a good game against it, the following cards are good ones (especially if you're backing it up with counters and/or discard):

Gaddock Teeg
Golgari Charm
Ethersworn Cannonist
Silence/Orim's Chant
Krosan Grip

However, that's not a great list of answers. Mostly it involves killing Omni in response to Enter the Infinite. Once they Enter, you're done.

-Matt

[Fatal]

Killing Omni in resp to EtI its useless mostly like playing chant in resp - it just gives a one more turn - it doesn't stop them.

The most useful things vs Omni Halls:
- Taxing effects (Thalia/Trini)
- Surgical/Extripate vs Intuition
- Gaddock Teeg with protection/Pridemage/Aven mindcensor (until they find Cunning Wish to find Emrakul)
- Maddling Mage on S&T/Halls
-Discard until Leyline

Cards that gives a turn after S&T:
-Ethersworn Canonist
-Silence
-Orim's Chant


Playing Aluren and go off in resp to EtI / Cunning Wish :].

Blue:
A lot of hard counters with discard.