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With the printings of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, is Survival of the Fittest really too powerful for the format?
Regardless of whether it is "safe" to unban, the card is a repeatable tutor engine and thus won't be unbanned.
It's worth remembering that the correct builds of Survival were midrange creature decks that could switch to combo or combo/aggro decks if they wanted. Trying to narrowly hate out the graveyard or tutor aspects of the deck just left you vulnerable to being hit with dorks.
Strike 1: One card comboOriginally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Strike 2: Repeatable tutor
Strike 3: Already banned for being OP
The only real way to unban Survival is to ban Vengevine. Unfortunately with the way Cradle works now I don't even know if that would matter. Either way it's probably not going to happen for a long time.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Not with Cradle bein' all like it will be.
And really, I'm sick of people pointing to Survival's repeatable tutoryness as the reason it got banned. Bullshit. The reason was Vengevine. Tutoring up creatures is great and all, but only when you're going to hardcore win the game because of it. No Survival strategy or decklist was even close to abusive until Vengevine gave you the option to ignore synergies and creature-based combos and just vomit 16+ power into the red zone in one turn.
One-card combo, kind of. Repeatable tutor, bullshit. OP, yes (with Vengevine).
The same as banning Punishing Fire in Modern; I'd rather they ban the one thing whose bizarre mechanic makes it abusive (Grove of the Burnwillows, Vengevine) than the interesting cards with lots of tactical options and benefits.
The best list didn't even use Vengevine. See Patrick Chapin's deck tech with Fauna Shamans and Loyal Retainers.
Actually, I think Survival is very safe to unban... that doesn't mean they will, but think of what has been printed since it got the hammer. Since Survival was banned, we got Surgical Extraction, Snapcaster Mage (for Surgical or Swords), Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull, and Terminus. Of those, six of the seven are maindecked right now anyways and the seventh is a common sideboard card.
Like Aggro_zombies mentioned, the best versions of Survival were the GW midranged ones. Ever since Terminus was printed, GW midranged has been on the ropes. Abrupt Decay helped put the nail in the coffin. The strength of GW Survival was that it wasn't a combo deck so much as a midranged deck that could turn on the gas if you durdled too much.
The fastest you could hope to kill was likely turn four or five. Compared to Show and Tell decks (circa Griselbrand) or the new wave of extra resilient ANT decks, getting killed on t4/5 by Green creatures is the least of your worries. The success of GW Survival rode heavily on its GW midranged creature suite (and as we saw, GW Maverick rose to be a tier deck until Terminus rolled around).
Will Survival be powerful? Yes. Will it put a new tier deck on the map? Very probably. Is it anything so powerful that it cannot be beaten by maindeck Snapcaster Mage, Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Batterskull, and Terminus? (and don't forget Surgical Extraction from the side) Probably not.
Batterskull - Grab Qasali Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver
Snapcaster Mage - Grab Deathrite Shaman / Scavenging Ooze / Loaming Shaman
Surgical Extraction - Ignore, run silver bullets anyway, no need for Vengevines
Rest in Piece - Grab Qasali Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver
Still doesn't solve ANYTHING.
This is like saying Counterbalance is bad against Storm because they can Wish for Reverent Silence.
Yes. If all you ever do the entire game is cast one of those cards, you will still lose to Survival. Fortunately, most decks are packed full of interaction. A ton of very good anti-GY cards have been printed recently. Most of those cards have solid applications across the format as is and as such are even run maindeck. In addition, there is now a one mana, instant speed Wrath of God that keeps creatures out of the graveyard. No one of these cards will beat Survival by itself. However, they do contribute to a format that is drastically different from the one in which Survival was banned.
Survival of the Fittest would have a laughable impact on the metagame, between Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction and Abrupt Decay the deck lists of today are no where near as vulnerable to graveyard strategies as they were durring Vengevine's hay day. It'd probably share the same fate as Reanimator and Dredge, if not worse.
Survival was never about the graveyard. Survival was always about being able to tutor up protection and answers. Graveyard hate is ONLY relevant if you are playing into it with Loyal Retainers, Vengevine or Necrotic Ooze which is just a dumb thing to do. While you are spending resources to combat the graveyard, I can just summon 4 Tarmogoyfs and a Scavenging Ooze and kill you instead. If Survival was about throwing things in the graveyard, Entomb would be banned by now.
"Summon four Tarmogoyfs" Survival never even came close to dominating the format. Not even when it started running Loyal Retainers/Iona, Shield of Emeria.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
The reason the tutor ability was too strong was because it didn't include a tap function (like Fauna Shaman.) It wasn't that you could Demonic Tutor once a turn for G...you could do it multiple times. A turn 2 Survival could see up to 3, maybe 4, activations on turn 3 (fetch Vengevine, discard to fetch another, you get the picture.) Tutoring isn't overpowered; I would argue that Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor are much more dangerous of a Tutor combination, and they aren't wrecking the format. What Survival did was do it multiple times a turn. If the Vengevine plan went sour, the deck could switch to the Necrotic Ooze package (which only took up around 5 slots if I remember right.)
I'm using Survival in EDH (because I can) and whenever it gets into the mix, the games get bonkers (Varolz commander of course...)
I say leave it out of the mix. Green Sun's Zenith has functionally replaced it as the re-usable and fair tutor engine. GSZ is really powerful, and I think has enough power that Survival can stay on the banned list. I just don't see the reason to even GO THERE. The format is diverse, you can win by turning dudes sideways, and there are distinctive and viable decks in each archetype to provide for success. Let sleeping dogs lie.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
That seems really really banal compared to just resolving Show and Tell.
Seems like just enough time has passed that everyone forgot what surival did and what it couldn't do.
I'm 100 % (yea, really) sure that survival would be fine in the format. However discussing this is useless since we aren't employees of WoTc.
Even though graveyard hate is ubiquitous in the format, Survival (combo) is still a powerhouse.
If you have the green light and just want a good old stompy way, you do the Vengevine route.
Your opponent plays a Moat? Maybe Rest in Peace? Grab Qasali Pridemage or one of his classmates.
Your opponent destroys SotF? Grab Eternal Witness in response.
You're pissed that your opponent is being a dick, discard that Iona (that you grabbed) and grab Loyal Retainers.
You're at one and facing lethal? Phyrexian Devourer + Triskelion + Necrotic Ooze anyone?
Worst case scenario, you can grab your own Deathrite Shaman and grind it out.
SotF is a fun card. Is it "safe" in the format now? Not sure.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
You're right. Survival was never about the graveyard.... until Vengevine. Coincidentally enough, Survival was never particularly good until Vengevine. Before Vengvine, the deck was one of those cute niche decks that you'd hear about popping up occasionally but never being good enough to even be considered a "tier 1.5" strategy. It's a powerful card, it's a fun card, but for it to be an abusable card it absolutely has to have free reign in the graveyard.
All these people arguing that it's actually mean ol' Vengevine's fault for breaking Survival are missing the point that Survival now has a track record for being spontaneously breakable with new printings. Like, which is better: continuing to play whack-a-mole by banning the proximate issues whenever Survival gets broken or recognizing that the ultimate problem is your cheap, reusable tutor engine? This is why Survival is not actually safe to unban no matter how many answers there now are to what Survival decks looked like years ago.
Also, keep in mind that creature power creep is currently off the charts and shows no signs of abating. Do you really want Survival around in that case?
It was Vengvine's fault. Survival was always a powerful card but not a dominating strategy; Vengvine made it a winning one. In the same way, Sneak Attack had always been a powerful card but a weak strategy. Until Griselbrand was printed, Sneak and Show was a fringe deck at best.
This might or might not be true. I'm of the opinion that unless a card needs to be banned then it shouldn't be banned. Not: it needs to be banned today because we might have to ban it a year from now. It's fine to unban things (Time Spiral and Land Tax for example) that in the past were huge powerhouses but likely would have less of an impact today. That isn't to say that you should unban things haphazardly or without testing, but if you mess up, you can always just reban it.
Look at the format today. Graveyard decks and beatdown decks are both non-existent or close to it. Survival is a card that finds creatures, and at its most broken, uses the graveyard. I would almost say that the only way GW beatdown decks even have a chance against today's meta of GBx, Miracles, Esperblade variants, and Show and Tell would be to utilize Survival. Go ahead and MWS it up against a friend, run Survival through a gaunlet (I likely will later in the week just for fun). I think you'll find that it's a lot less scary than it was a few years ago.
Survival in Vintage?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
What about Survival in Vintage?
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