Is Survival safe to unban now?

[FTW]

Survival is irrelevant because people play graveyard hate now

orly?

T1 mana dork
T2 Survival with a green open. EOT pay G and pitch a creature....

But guess what? I don't have to find Vengevine. Hmm.. what hate do you have?

RiP? Ok, I'll get Qasali Pridemage. Cast it, pop Rest, THEN search up 3 Vengevines...

Something hand-based like Surgical Extraction/Extirpate or Faerie Macabre? Ok, I'll dig up Soul Collector/Tidehollow Sculler/w-e and strip it from your hand. THEN search up 3 Vengevines...

Deathrite Shaman? O hai Phyrexian Revoker/removal.card/etc

The point is that the deck can adapt to the format because Survival is a 1-card combo. There are always answers to hate. If you kill Survival that's one thing, but if you're just durdling around trying to remove my graveyard, I can tutor 2 cards a turn that say otherwise. And then as soon as you are powerless to stop my graveyard, I can dig up 4 Vengevines or Necrotic Ooze and GGs.

Before, Survival was just a cool toolbox-enabler but had to win the game through slow and grindy means. But ever since it's had more than 1 "I Win" button, it can just find an answer to the board and then instantly win. You can Brainstorm all day, but I still have better card quality.

[Dark Ritual]

Survival in Vintage?

It does nothing there because of how much more powerful the decks are and there are so many auto includes that aren't creatures. Also, compare it to oath of druids. Oath of druids is leagues ahead of survival in terms of powerlevel.

Survival will never be safe in legacy. They'll keep printing more cards that are more and more powerful with it. Look at varolz, the scar-striped. That card is obscene with survival + brawn to get it through after pumping it +24/+24 with two dreadnoughts scavenged onto it. They have karakas? Blow it up with wasteland or some creature you tutored for with survival. StP on varolz? Okay, I'll grab another one and more dudes to scavenge onto it to deal lethal. Or just vengevine beatdown or necrotic ooze combo. The options with survival are infinite so long as more brand new creatures are printed.

Also, gravehate answers survival? Don't make me laugh. There are creatures that can answer any and every hate card you pack for survival. Also, it never cared about the graveyard before vengevine? Tell that to people who ran survival advantage, molotov cocktail, etc. etc. back in the day. Squee, goblin nabob is grave based. Genesis is grave based. Eternal witness is gravebased. Anger is gravebased. It wasn't just a creature tutor, it was an engine that grinded the opponent to dust with card advantage from squee, genesis, eternal witness, etc. etc. Unban survival and we'll see the format warp around it again.

[(nameless one)]

I honestly think Memory Jar has a greater chance of getting unbanned than SotF. with all the arguments posted here.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If they banned Vengevine, yes.

[jamis]

I honestly think Memory Jar has a greater chance of getting unbanned than SotF. with all the arguments posted here.

Agreed. With the printing of Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Krosan Grip, Damping Matrix, and Stony Silence, is Memory Jar really too powerful for the format?

And besides, Memory Jar isn't the broken card, its Megrim. If any card should be banned, it's Megrim. Drawing 7 cards is good and all, but only when you're going to win the game because of it.

To be fair, though, Memory Jar was banned 1 month after it was printed 14 years ago. The format's never really had time to try it out. At least SotF has been around semi-recently by comparison so when we discuss banning it, it's not just theory, but there's actual tournament results to back up why it was banned.

[Darkenslight]

Agreed. With the printing of Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Krosan Grip, Damping Matrix, and Stony Silence, is Memory Jar really too powerful for the format?

And besides, Memory Jar isn't the broken card, its Megrim. If any card should be banned, it's Megrim. Drawing 7 cards is good and all, but only when you're going to win the game because of it.

To be fair, though, Memory Jar was banned 1 month after it was printed 14 years ago. The format's never really had time to try it out. At least SotF has been around semi-recently by comparison so when we discuss banning it, it's not just theory, but there's actual tournament results to back up why it was banned.

Goblin Welder says hi. Memory Jar would have to be hated on harder than Dredge before it even became unviable. Most Storm decks would play at least one, it's that good.

[ReAnimator]

It will never be safe.

If it was playable i'm pretty sure i would start every list with this, and add silver bullets around it:

4 SotF
4 Rootwalla
4 DRS
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Gaea's Cradle

nice graveyard hate you got there, would be a shame if i just trampled over for a million...

Sweet cradle upgrade.

[HPB_Eggo]

Survival was - and still is - a great card that creates a ton of interesting interactions and allows for decks with lots of choices. I used to play almost exclusively Survival decks or combo at tournaments because they were the only decks I found interesting to play that were any good at the time.

That being said, Wizards has been committed over the past few years to increasing the power level of creatures. Assuming they want to keep doing that, Survival can never be unbanned. Vengevine is a great example of how Survival can be broken, but simply banning it wouldn't fix the problem, as the very root of the problem is the direction in which Wizards is going with the game.

So, sure, Survival might be safe to allow into the format right now. I wouldn't support it coming back, though, as it could be broken with any given printing to the point of being as bad as Vengevine - something that I think we can all agree isn't good for the health of Legacy as a format.

[Mr. Safety]

What about Survival in Vintage?

Would it work in Vintage considering the impressive amount of power creep for creatures?

[Aggro_zombies]

Would it work in Vintage considering the impressive amount of power creep for creatures?

No? Vintage is a completely different format for the reasons Dark Ritual outlined.

Or are you trying to use an apples-and-oranges comparison to disprove creature power creep?

[Lemnear]

Would it work in Vintage considering the impressive amount of power creep for creatures?

Nope, the format is too defined by non-creature cards to make it work properly. You may take current BUG fishes as an example how less survival would help those Decks in vintage

[Mr. Safety]

No? Vintage is a completely different format for the reasons Dark Ritual outlined.

Or are you trying to use an apples-and-oranges comparison to disprove creature power creep?

Not at all, just curious. It tells me what I had assumed: it's in that awkward zone where it's too powerful for Legacy (my opinion) but unplayable in Vintage.

[nedleeds]

It will never be safe.

If it was playable i'm pretty sure i would start every list with this, and add silver bullets around it:

4 SotF
4 Rootwalla
4 DRS
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Gaea's Cradle

nice graveyard hate you got there, would be a shame if i just trampled over for a million...

Sweet cradle upgrade.

Why not just cast green sun zenith instead of wasting time with survival on your example? This same line of play is adopted in elves, GSZ is better than SotF in many cases. Elves has free creatures, access to fast mana and can abuse Cradle. My GSZ cant get spell snared, revoked and acts as an accelerator early, a tutor late. SotF would be a nice card but nothing nearly as powerful or ubiquitous as Brainstorm, not as unfun and unfair as Show and Tell, and have the same grindy time constraints as Top (or as they thought Land Tax might).

[nedleeds]

orly?

T1 mana dork
T2 Survival with a green open. EOT pay G and pitch a creature....

But guess what? I don't have to find Vengevine. Hmm.. what hate do you have?

RiP? Ok, I'll get Qasali Pridemage. Cast it, pop Rest, THEN search up 3 Vengevines...

Something hand-based like Surgical Extraction/Extirpate or Faerie Macabre? Ok, I'll dig up Soul Collector/Tidehollow Sculler/w-e and strip it from your hand. THEN search up 3 Vengevines...

Deathrite Shaman? O hai Phyrexian Revoker/removal.card/etc

Wow I'm losing on turn 5. Sounds way better than Tinfins or Omni-Derp.

[Megadeus]

Wow I'm losing on turn 5. Sounds way better than Tinfins or Omni-Derp.

Lulz. But for real this. I think it would be a fun card to be back in the format. I started playing legacy very shortly after it got banned and I remember hearing about it and it sounds like it was a lot of fun to play. Can someone give me a list that was played? I dont really know much about the deck other than Vengevines and Rootwallas and such

[conboy31]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on

GW with Iona was my favorite version.

[ReAnimator]

Why not just cast green sun zenith instead of wasting time with survival on your example? This same line of play is adopted in elves, GSZ is better than SotF in many cases. Elves has free creatures, access to fast mana and can abuse Cradle. My GSZ cant get spell snared, revoked and acts as an accelerator early, a tutor late. SotF would be a nice card but nothing nearly as powerful or ubiquitous as Brainstorm, not as unfun and unfair as Show and Tell, and have the same grindy time constraints as Top (or as they thought Land Tax might).

How does GSZ tutor up 4 Rootwallas put them into play and then find you a Craterhoof? Also with survival and cradles i can break up the mana over multiple turns and not just have to spend a bunch of cards in my hand and 9 mana all at once. Were you being serious?
Like this isn't even remotely like what elves does, and this is just a compact plan A package of things you want to probably run anyway, plan b is your entire tool box and whatever disruption you want and any other combo you have space for.

[jamis]

Lulz. But for real this. I think it would be a fun card to be back in the format. I started playing legacy very shortly after it got banned and I remember hearing about it and it sounds like it was a lot of fun to play. Can someone give me a list that was played? I dont really know much about the deck other than Vengevines and Rootwallas and such

Here's 7
Here's 7 more
Another 7
This one only had 5 in the top 16

[Megadeus]

It seems like it was a very good deck to put up those results. Was anyone bitching and complaining about the deck? It definitely seems very powerful, but there are a few new tools to play with that could possibly nerf the strategy like DRS to an extent, RIP, and Abrupt Decay.

[Koby]

It seems like it was a very good deck to put up those results. Was anyone bitching and complaining about the deck? It definitely seems very powerful, but there are a few new tools to play with that could possibly nerf the strategy like DRS to an extent, RIP, and Abrupt Decay.

IIRC, everyone was up in arms about how this deck was dominating and no one bothered to play any answers to it (Extirpate, Pithing Needle, etc). AFAIK, those answers didn't matter and everyone was just netdecking it over and over in large amounts.