This is a deck that I have been working on for a long time. It has recently gained the awesome nod into the Legacy Metagame Forum by my fellow Legacy Adepts and the lone Vintage Restricted Adept. In this post I will meerly post two decklists that are crafted out of large amounts of testing and work on the deck. On this page you will find an always updated FAQ and primer for the deck. And please read up on the old discussion to prep yourself for this one.
My list, this is currently what I'm playing as of the last Top 4 place in a tournament:
Thanks Odd Mutation for the solid list and viable competator for the format. I have slightly modified it to include more drastic differences between my list and his.Welder Survival
//Engines
4|Goblin Welder
4|Survival of the Fittest
//Mana
4|Birds of Paradise
1|Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1|Quirion Ranger
//Draw and Search
4|Thirst for Knowledge
2|Intuition
//Fat
1|Triskelion
1|Phyrexian Colossus
1|Sundering Titan
1|Platinum Angel
//Weld Bait
1|Pentavus
1|Shield Sphere
//The Tools
1|Duplicant
2|Eternal Witness
1|Viridian Zealot
1|Uktabi Orangutan/Keldon Vandals
1|Genesis
1|Anger
1|Squee, Goblin Nabob
1|Spore Frog
1|Goblin Sharpshooter
1|Wood Elves
1|??????
//Trees, Hills, and Rocks oh, and Jewels
5|Forest
3|Tropical Island
4|Taiga
4|Wooded Foothills
1|Windswept Heath
2|Tree of Tales
3|Chrome Mox
With a second Titan and Anger the Intuitions were increased to three, also allowing for the awesome play of Intuition for Crucible, Wasteland, Tree/Prism for some face wreckage against Survival and control alike. With this combination you can easily set up wasteland lock by welding in the Crucible and going to town with Wasteland. Another very interesting difference is Sylvan Safekeeper, the guy is awesome at protecting Welder in the late game, however is not so hot in the early game when you want to aggresively put a Titan into play, keep in mind that he is always a 1/1 for 1 and always is Survivalable.Red (8)
4 Goblin Welder
2 Anger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
Green (15)
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
2 Eternal Witness
Blue (6)
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
Artifact (11)
4 Pentad Prism
2 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Pentavus
1 Shield Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
Lands (20)
3 Tropical Island
4 Taiga
4 Tree of Tales
1 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
Edited By CavernNinja on 1109186506
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Im glad to see safekeeper as a maindeck contender. Especially considering he eats Swords for breakfast, being the only removal some decks pack in early game, he insures the important game winning weld you need. How well is the whole Crucible plan working? I did try it and I cant say I was satisfied with how it worked. It's nice to intuition for yes, but in so many other instances I'd rather be playing Intuition to fetch my fatty threats. Like you said this is an aggresive deck. I would consider wastelock a control aspect that gums up the decks focus.
If your worried about non-basics like tomb, why not include a copy of ravenous baboons. Silly I know, but you can survival him out, and he can be imprinted. Im testing various surprise tools such as him, and even dosan. Dosan is not controls friend. And often invokes preemtive mass removal, or eats a Swords.
Aggro bites, and crucible has no teeth.
Now playing real formats.
How often do you find yourself wishing the moxen were something else? They seem bit iffy due to the lack of imprintable cards. Have you thought about lotus petal, or maybe mox diamond? I can see the petal maybe not being enough since it's just a one shot deal, although it could be welded back in a pinch. Then again there are much better things to be welded. Mox diamond may not be all that great either since you do want a lot of early mana but it seems like land may be more easily disposable than creatures.
Mox Diamond is unplayable. It requires atleast 23 land and that is far too many slots for an aggro deck. As for Lotus Petal there is no way that I will play it as long as the sun shines on this earth. It can't be used for mana and welded and as such is more than chaff in the deck. I have discussed in detail why I do or don't like Mox and have replied to questions on it numerous times, please read up on the old discussions if you have questions. The fact is that I don't know which I like more, for now I'm playing Mox because speed is cool, but the lack of imprintable cards and the card disadvantage have lost me games where I would have easily won if it had been Prism.
@ CavernNinja: Thanks for putting my list together with yours and for the correct clarifications about the differences in both decklists. I also would've liked to include a third Intuition but it's hard to cut things. I don't agree on cutting a Tree of Tales (or the 4th Tropical Island) to make room for the third Intuition (or the Wasteland). I would even prefer more land then less land and now the deck is stuck with only 19. Also, I believe you need four Trees. The only reason to take one out would be to replace it with a forest to make Rofellos better. I found it so hard to cut anything that I stuck with only two Intuition. Metagame considerations might offer a justifaction to replace a card for another Intuition, my list surely could use an extra one.
@ bane_of_the_living:
Cool idea but 'till now, I've really liked the Crucible. It gets my own lands back after a Titan, or a Tree of Tales when I've sacrificed it to a Welder activation. And if I'm playing the Crucible, it's easy to include the lone Wasteland. You're right that it's slow but I think you can agree that this has proven to be a solid tactic (against some decks) and I don't feel that it hinders this deck at all. The most important task for the Crucible though, is to bring your mountains (Taiga's) and Tree of Tales back from the dead.If your worried about non-basics like tomb, why not include a copy of ravenous baboons.
If I would include a nonbasic landkiller I would opt for Dwarven Miner instead (or maybe Avalanche Riders for their, although costly, sinergy with Genesis). Actually, I might give him a try altogether. I can see him doing crazy stuff with the Sylvan Safekeeper keeping him alive and with Quirion Ranger to get the most out of the miner... just not sure if it will work in real life. I am actually trying to see if a single Trinisphere has a place in the deck to completely lock your opponent out of the game (it would be a nasty surprise against combo decks as well as delay the game when paired against heavy burn decks). Of course, timing the sphere would be crucial. I am aware of the fact that these look like crazy ideas and they may prove to be utterly useless or overkill but no harm can be done by testing them.
@ jeremys: In my humble opinion, if you want a mox in the deck it should definitely be Chrome Mox but I like the Pentad Prisms a lot better. I would even prefer Talismans over Prism if speed was not such an important factor. In fact, when facing control, the Talismans are a lot better then Prisms but a lot of times you just can't waste time and Prism beats the Talisman. Lotus Petal is awful here. You want an artifact that helps you out with mana and stays around to be welded. And you'll never want to weld in a Petal...
Regards,
Odd mute.
Very true, and I don't think I ever said it was a good suggestion, if I gave that impression it was certainly unintentional. I like the speed of the mox but I don't know how big a fan I am of the potential deadness in hand. What about elvish spirit guide? It's a one shot, like petal but it can be survivaled if not needed and you don't have to pitch anything to it. It's faster than the prism but it gives 1 less mana and it can't be welded out like the prism, or the mox for that matter.
My list is running 5 free artifacts, that is fairly light and could probably afford to be higher than that, a list running 2-4 would be horrid due the lack of things to weld out. ESG just doesn't make the cut for acceleration because you can't weld it which is more important than being able to Survival it.
Hi,
CavernNinja said it. You need your mana helpers to stay around. Either for the mana support (Birds of Paradise) or to be welded for your win conditions (Pentad Prism or Chrome Mox). I actually tested with Llanowar Elves, Elvish Spirit Guides, Birds of Paradise, Lotus Petal, Pentad Prisms, Chrome Moxen and Eladamri's Vineyards (not all together of course but all sorts of combinations). I have found that, to me, Birds and Prisms appear to be the best option.
This deck truly is a compromise between: "I want as much mana as possible", "I need enough creatures to make Survival useful" and "I never want to have Welder out without an artifact to weld". For example, that's why I definetely go with 4 Tree of Tales because it is a perfect compromise between demand number 1 and number 2. Crucible fits the bill as well and you could make similar cases for almost every card in the deck.
Greetings,
Odd Mute.
CN by my count you run 7 free artifacts, Tree of Tales certainly counts as a free artifact.
I ran prisms for a while and was sceptical on how Chrome Mox's disadvantage could overcome the power of the Prism, but after a month or so of playing with Mox, I won't go back. Mox makes the deck an entire turn faster, and as CN stated increasing the number of free artifacts, which actually was a bigger deal than I thought. Another point in the Mox is that it is often less dead in that it can turn extra Survivals into green mana, which this deck likes alot.
A good friend of mine once said:
>Pron w/sound FTW... Actually, Porn FTW. Yep. Fixed.
Extra survival is what I end up printing alot. It may seem silly in metagames gunning to take your survivals down, but you only really need to untap with it once to capitalize of it if you played it turn one.
My vote is also on 4 trees.
Cninja a large problem I see with your build is that you have no turn 1 but birds. Turn one is EXTREMELY important if your on the draw. Thats why I like mox and brainstorm. Oh I wouldn't count Welder as a turn one play EVER. I think it's silly to simply play him out unhasted or not under protection of safekeeper. I'm sure you agree.
Now playing real formats.
I actually highly disagree with not playing Welder. You always have three more in the deck and there is very little chance that your oponent could remove all of them from the game. If Welder is my turn one play then he hits play, no questions asked. It is a blocker in some cases, a threat in others. In order to make Thirst and Intuition truly scary you really need an active Welder on the board.
I agree with Cavern Ninja, playing a turn 1 welder is ok if you have a Thirst/Intuition in your opening hand as well, even if you know they are playing STP or some deck with a very limited number of removal spells.
Bane: The reason CN and I run fewer than 4 Trees is because it is not a basic Forest and thus does not work with Rofellos. There are already alot of nonbasics in the deck and I don't need Tree catching Artifact removal like Rack and Ruin and Deed.
A good friend of mine once said:
>Pron w/sound FTW... Actually, Porn FTW. Yep. Fixed.
Is the Crucible really necessary? When testing this deck, I often find Crucible to be a dead card that I never end up casting, because there are too many other things to do before it. I'm not against saying that I'm probably just bad with the deck, but I'm not much sold on the CoW, either.
Banned...?!
Crucible is useful for a weld each turn and to thin out your land, however in all my testing I've found that it is most useful at combatting enemy crucible/waste or just lucky draws of lots of wasteland. It can also take the bite off of Titan by allowing you to replay your Taiga and still attack that turn.
How often do you use it, though? It just seems a bit unneeded to me.
Banned...?!
I use it all the time I Intuition for something like 2 x Titan + Crucible, 2 x Anger + Crucible or even Crucible + Wasteland + Eternal Witness. If you're not comfortable with the card, then leave it out. At worst it will bring you back a land (there are 6 fetchlands in the deck and 8 important lands like Taiga and Tree of Tales) and then be used for Welder fodder for a mere three mana!
Lately I find myself playing without Rofellos. I'll explain why:
* He rarely makes up for the investment necessary to get him out. When Survival is out you don't need him because you have the tool to get everything out at once. If I go for Rofellos, he almost never gives me more then one extra green mana the turn he comes into play and more times then not, just gives back the two green needed to cast him. Keep in mind that bringing him in costs you a creature from the Survival chain as well so he should be really worth it! If you have Quirion out he can do better but I prefer to use the ability from Quirion for Welder activations.
* People who are really fond of him seem to be taking out Tree of Tales to make Rofellos more powerful. It seems a bit strange to me to take out primary tools (the Trees) to make a secondary card (Rofellos) better.
* I find that speed is most important. I consider this deck to be a creature based combo deck. When I drop Survival I want to win this turn or ultimately in the next turn. To play Rofellos, even with active Anger (meaning you have a mountain in play), he only nets me 1 extra green mana at best the turn I want to win. I rarely even have three forests out at once. Agreed, the next turn he will do great things but I'll be able to do enough with three forest out! Of course, all of this is when you have a Survival out. If you don't have Survival you probably wont have a Rofellos either since there is only one copy.
* The only time when I seem to like Rofellos is when playing control matchups and when "the battle for more mana" is important. In this matchup I would prefer three Rofellos main deck!
So all of this to say that I consider him more of an overkill card then essential to the mechanic of the deck.
I expect a lot of you to disagree with me on this. Please, state your opinions with some form of explanation.
Greetings,
Odd Mute.
I agree on cutting Rofellos. THis deck doesn't have the same issues with mana that ATS has, since Welder Survival uses it's toolbox for free. I have had much more success running a rainbow non-basic manabase and a Turbo-Titan approach. The multi-lands allow for a much wider set of sideboard options as well, and Crucible becomes much stronger with Gemstones MD. I regularly get the Titan weld loop going by the 3rd turn, which is just game-ending in most cases.
Here's my mana base:
3xTree Of Tales
3xChrome Mox
3xTaiga
1xForest
1xMountain
4xWooded Foothills
4xCity Of Brass
4xGemstone Mine
-Rofellos
-Spore Frog
-Wood Elves
+second Titan
+2Crucible
--->DJ
Odd Mute-
I agree with not playing Rofellos anymore. Rofellos is great for mana acceleration at various points but I believe that it has horrible synergy with Sundering Titan, which is one of the decks main win conditions. Admittedly there are sometimes where you will not be losing a forest when welding in the Titan however I do believe that often you will be losing one. This makes Rofellos that much less effective. I am uncertain as to what could be added to the deck to replace Rofellos, however I believe that it should be taken out. Anyways those are just my two cents on the matter.
I disagree with cutting Rofellos, he often acts like Welder number 6. He is a must counter/kill for control. The ability to play him turn 2 and tap out to play a Trike/Duplicant/Pentavus turn 3 can and does win games. He does the exact same thing as Welder accept he doesn't cost you another artifact. I agree that he is anti-synergetic with Titan, however he is very synergetic with Pentavus, and he is redundant. Redundancy is something that most Survival decks don't have, and don't forget the entire reason that blue was added to this deck was to help take away the dependancy on Survival. Rofellos also helps to do that, considering that this deck curves out at 8.
I got 3rd place in a 55 person tourney with this deck, matchup resulsts to follow.
A good friend of mine once said:
>Pron w/sound FTW... Actually, Porn FTW. Yep. Fixed.
Well, a third Intuition would be high on my list. Depending on your exact build and metagame there should be a lot of options.
What is number five? :) No really, I understand your point. I believe that this is only an issue when facing control decks. As I said in my previous post, in this scenario I would like 3 Rofellos in the deck. But I do not feel it is necessary to include just one copy in the main deck for this purpose. He could be a sideboard option then, although I think that there are better options available to help you against control.
Genesis is in the deck 'to have more copies of Welder in the deck then strictly allowed'.
I agree with DJ Catchem. The general aim of the deck is to use Goblin Welder as fast as possible to gain a decisive advantage on your opponent. The added bonus of Survival is that you can play with a useful toolbox as well but the emphasis is on the combo play. If Survival would not be as good to the decks' goal as it is, I wouldn't play it. It is there for the same reasons and more that Thirst for Knowledge and, to a lesser extent, Intuition are in the deck.
Regards,
Odd mute.
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