Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
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Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
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Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
Undomian, could you please share your welder list? I always loved Welders but never found a viable way to play them in Legacy (Dack may help to this).
Re Thassa, I think that the Scry ability is pretty relevant in a deck that does not play Brainstorm or ToP and is always looking for bombs (Tezzeret, Jace, Thopther combo), the ability is crucial in filtering dead cards in the mid-late game to continue resolving key cards (specially relevant against control). It is difficult to hit devotion which is another good point as it means that it will stay on the battlefield for the rest of the game (no Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile, etc). The unblockeable ability is also relevant as for 1U we can make our 5/5 unblockeable...just need 2UU to hit for 10 for sure!
My main concern is about playing Toxic Deluge main deck or in the board. I think this deck has few answers to resolved threats (we rely so much on Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge and our PW bombs). I think it could be enough.
Mid-late game, you should have a Tezz or a JTMS going, or a Tutor online, or have naturally drawn cards. The deck typically doesn't have problems 'resolving' cards against control, as Miracles really does not like having to find/leave a 4 drop on the top of their library, and Decay doesn't hit them either. And as for your lack of devotion being an upside, you are effectively playing an enchantment at that point - and I promise, there are more efficient or powerful enchantments to accomplish the same goal.
And if you are having problems with deck's blocking your 5/5's in an impactful way that prevents you from winning the game, I would love to know what matchups you are playing...
Looks like CalebD has an updated list he is streaming with that is forgoing the Transmute package altogether. I have to wonder how much of his list is defined by the online meta vs. the paper one - there are 0 Bridges main, and he has 4 Leyline of the Void in the SB.
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Damnation
1 Go for the Throat
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Baleful Strix
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Sword of the Meek
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Dimir Signet
1 Karn Liberated
3 City of Traitors
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
-SB-
3 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Damnation
1 Go for the Throat
1 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vendilion Clique
Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
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Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
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Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
Sorry I took so long, literally just saw this post. This is what I've been testing with:
4 Baleful Strix
2 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 The Abyss
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
2 Dimir Signet
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
61 cards
SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lodestone Golem
Welder is in the SB where it comes in against the GBx shells that I side Chalices out against. I imagine you could play with it in the main in the right meta (especially with Dack in the list, as he gives you a chance to recoup the CA lost when you draw one with a Chalice on the field), and I might test that at some point. I would be sorely tempted to try Myr Battlesphere in this kind of strategy too, though that might just be a different deck all together.
I'm not sure how much I like that CalebD list. With Transmute out of the picture, you're forced to run suboptimal numbers of some things (see: 3 Sword of the Meek) and I also really dislike Karn. It is really powerful to be sure, but 7 mana is SO much in this deck, especially when his list only plays 21 land (though he does play an above average number of artifact mana sources). I'm also not sure of the value of running only 3 Chalice, as it seems like the full four might be necessary to stabilize in the early game. At first glance, that deck seems like it would just be wrecked by something like RUG or BUG delver. I haven't watched the video yet, so I'll definitely have to do that. CalebD does know what he's doing in this format.
So I took the exact list posted above to a 36-man SCG IQ yesterday, and unfortunately lost in the finals. My matchups were as follows:
R1: UB Countertop (2-0)
R2: Shardless BUG (2-1)
R3: UB Tezzeret [a more traditional build of it] (2-1)
R4: UG Infect (2-1)
R5: BUG Delver (0-2)
R6: ID
QF: Shardless BUG (2-0)
SF: Affinity (2-1)
Finals: BUG Delver [Same guy as in R5] (0-2)
Dack Fayden proved his worth multiple times throughout the day, as did Goblin Welder. Dack was phenomenal in the Shardless BUG matchups, probably would have been great in the mirror match (though I didn't see him), and was obviously amazing against Affinity. I actually got to live the dream against Affinity with Dack by taking his Cranial Plating to make my counterattack lethal. In the Shardless BUG matchups, I was able to take their Shardless Agents and Baleful Strixes to stabilize for long enough against their Goyfs for my own walkers to take over the game.
I think the next thing I might try with the deck is adding an additional land, which will probably be the fourth Polluted Delta. I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to cut for it, but I was mana screwed multiple times on the day (losing me both matchups against BUG Delver), and I think Dack provides the filtering push I need to not be flooded. I also kind of want an out to Null Rod in the sideboard. I've been doing pretty well with this list in my area for the past few months, and other people have started to pick up the deck as well due to the publicity that Joe Lossett has been giving it. As a consequence, more Null Rods have been cropping up in local sideboards, and I currently have zero outs to it with my only "removal" for that sort of stuff being EE. The Helm/Leyline sideboard I've always had around has really not been pulling its weight recently, though I am still deathly afraid of attending a tournament without at least four pieces of hard GY hate in my board. I've actually been considering Rakdos Charm as GY hate as well as a way to kill Null Rod, but that seems really, really deep.
What's your sideboardplan with the Goblin Welders? When do you board those guys in?
Using Tapatalk
Congratulations for the results @Undomian!! I think Dack Fayden is a good card in the current meta (it is a shame that his last ability is absolutely useless in this deck - I do not know if you had the opportunity to ultimate in your testing/matches).
I was wondering why you have two copies of Engineered Explosives instead of Ratchet Bomb taking into account that you have two copies of Transmute Artifact MD and two Goblin Welders in the side (please correct me if I am wrong but EE will enter into the battlefield with 0 counters if you use Transmute or the Goblin Welder ability).
I would also like to know how do you use the Goblin Welders - I understand the interaction between Dack Fayden's +1 and Goblin Welder but I do not see any relevant artifacts to be abussed with Welders (e.g. Wurmcoil Engine, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, etc). I think that Baleful Strix and the singleton Ensnaring Bridge are the only targets that may justify the inclusion of the Welders.
Thanks,
J.
Welders aren't there for any fancy tricks, they're there for resiliency. I have mostly been testing Welder as a sideboard plan against anything with Abrupt Decay. This deck tends to lean very heavily on a single permanent a lot of the time, and Decay throws a wrench into those plans. It can't be forced and we can't Chalice it (even disregarding how bad Chalice for 2 would be for this deck), so an untimely Decay will often spell the end of the game. Welder is a hedge against this. Either the Welder sticks and recovers those important permanents in exchange for some less important cards, or they kill it and are forced to have another removal spell for our haymakers. Welder is a bit of a 'nonbo' with Chalice, but fortunately enough for us, Chalice is pretty bad in the matchups where Welder is good, making for an easy swap. Using Shardless BUG as an example, I usually sideboard something like this:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Force of Will
+2 Goblin Welder
+1 The Abyss
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Toxic Deluge
As for EE, recursion isn't something I'm terribly focused on. I'm in the extreme minority that prefers Mox Diamond over Talisman/Signet, and a lot of my card choices reflect that - including Engineered Explosives. When you have the ability to set it on 3 or even 4 with relative ease, the card becomes much more valuable than something like Ratchet Bomb. Yeah, the card is much worse with Welder and Transmute, but I rarely find myself in a situation where the ability to Transmute for a Ratchet Bomb to go off in a few turns is better than just Transmuting for something with more impact. When you Transmute for a sweeper, you need it now more often than you need it later. There are exceptions, like in the Elves matchup or something similar, but I think the added flexibility and speed of EE is worth the exchange.
As for Dack Fayden, 100% of the reason for his inclusion is his first ability. This deck plays a lot like a ramp deck with the risk of drawing all mana and no threats, and Careful Study every turn is a pretty great solution to that problem. I've had him above ultimate range on multiple occasions, and I didn't feel bad about it at all. All of the other abilities are just an added bonus, so the fact that I literally have zero ways to trigger the emblem doesn't matter to me. The first time I activated his +1, drew two cards, and discarded two Mox Diamonds in the late game felt SO good. It filters out junk against the decks that want to go long, and finds the cards that matter against the decks that don't. To be perfectly honest, if they had printed an enchantment or something that read "At the beginning of your upkeep, Careful Study" I would have seriously tested it. This card is similar with the added effects that it dies a bit easier, sometimes fogs for you, and leads to the occasional blowout against any artifact-wielding opponent.
EDIT: On another note, this new 7:30EST Legacy Daily has finally given me the incentive to buy into MODO. I'll be buying this deck there when my next paycheck rolls around, so between that and the Legacy FNM I can attend now, I should be able to get substantially more testing in.
Many thanks for the detailed explanation. A few more questions. Have you considered moving the four copies of Chalice of the Void to the Side and include the two Goblin Welders and maybe two copies of Galvanic Blast, Whipflare or Red Elemental Blast in the MD? Sometimes I feel that Chalice of the Void is really bad if you are not on the play (50% chance of being on the play in G1) and as you mentioned it is also bad against Abrupt Decay decks (around 25% of the current meta). I know that Chalice on 1 is a potentially GG against combo decks or Canadian Thresholds and it protects our creatures from Swords to Plowshares but if you are not on the play and you don't have sol land/mox + chalice, they lose certain efficiency.
I was also wondering if now that you are playing a small splash to red, do you think that Blood Moon deserves a space in the 75? I think that with 4 Mox Diamons and 2 Dimir Signet this could be a good addition...
I think that, in my meta at least, Chalice is too good to take out of the maindeck. It's good against combo, it's good against Delver, and it's good against Miracles - all decks which are heavily played in my area. Whipflare is certainly an interesting idea, though. I hadn't thought of that since I started playing red. Blood Moon is also a very interesting thought. I think we might need to incorporate more basic lands into the deck if that goes in, because I still run into games from time to time where a Moon is brutally effective at cutting the deck off of its second colored mana source.
A friend of mine was interested in this deck. We have been testing the following with some decent results. Still trying to figure away around null rod out of certain decks like BUG delver. Also, Jester's Cap is nostalgic and can be cut. Please share your thoughts. I also have the board plans abbreviated.
Main:
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Dimir Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Staff of Nin
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 City of Traitors
3 Drowned Catacombs
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
1 Cursed Totem
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Notion Theif
1 Engineered Plague
1 Jester’s Cap
Vs. Rug
- 4 Force - 1Staff
+2 Toxic
+1 Crypt
+ 1 The Abyss
Vs. Burn/UR Delver
+ 3 Flusterstorm
- 1 Staff
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
vs. Jund
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 The Abyss
+1 Crypt
- 4 Force
Dredge (Manaless)
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 Staff
(- 4 Chalice)
+ 1 Crypt
+ 1 Cage
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
(+ 3 Flusterstorm)
(+ 1 PNeedle for Grizzledbrand)
BURG Delver/Young Pyromancer
+ 1 E-plague
+ 1 Cursed Totem
+ 2 Toxic
- 4 Force
MUD/Chalice Decks
- 4 Chalice
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 Cursed Totem
Death and Taxes (Maverick)
- 4 Force
- 2 Tezz 1.o
-1 Jace
or
- 4 Chalice
+ 2 Dread
+ 1 Eplague
+ 1 Cursed Totem
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 P Needle
Shardless BUG and BUG Delver
- 4 Force
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 Crypt
Turbo Eldrazi (Lands)
- 2 Force
(- 1 Force)
+ 1 PNeedle
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
(+ 1 crypt)
Merfolk (Goblins)
- 4 Chalice draw or Force play
- 1 Spellbomb
+ 1 Plague
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 Needle
Elves
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 Spellbomb
- 2 Jace
+ 1 Eplague
+ 2 Toxic
+ 1 Cage
+ 1 Cursed Totem
Esper Blade with Souls
- 4 Force
+ 2 Dread
+ 1 Needle
+ 1 Thief
UW stoneblade
- 4 Force
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 1 Thief
+1 P Needle
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
Deathblade
- 4 Force
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 2 Toxic
+1 Cursed Totem
+ 1 Needle
Storm
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 2 Bridge
- 1 Staff
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Cage
+ E Plague
Belcher
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 2 Bridge
- 1 Staff
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Eplague
+ 1 Needle
UWR Delver
- 4 Force
+ 1 The Abyss
+2 Toxic
+ 1 Eplague
Miracles
- 1 Bomb
- 2 Force
+ 1 Thief
+ 1 P Needle
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
Painter Varaints
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 Staff
- 1 Jace
+ 1 Needle
+ 1 The Abyss
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Cursed Totem
Reanimator
- 2 Tezzeret the Seeker
- 1 staff
- 1 E.E.
- 3 Stryx
+ 1 Cage
+ 1 Crypt
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 The Abyss
Show and Tell
- 2 E-bridge
- 1 E.E.
- 1 Spell Bomb
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
+ 1 Thief
Sneak Attack
- 1 Staff
- 1 E.E.
- 1 Spellbomb
- 2 Stryx
+ 1 P Needle
+ 3 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Jester’s Cap
The maindeck suite of spells seems to be very similar to what Joe Lossett streams with. It has proven to be very solid in his testing, so I see nothing wrong with that. The manabase is obviously different though. Underground Seas are certainly expensive these days, so I imagine that this particular configuration is a budget consideration? Catacombs seems really clunky, and I can't help but wonder if the three copies of those as well as some of the basic lands couldn't be some mix of Watery Grave/Darkslick Shores/(some lesser number of) Catacombs.
Your sideboard is pretty interesting too. Do you think that Cursed Totem/Dread of Night are better than more copies of Plague or more of some sweeper like Deluge/Massacre/etc.? Also, do you find yourself missing the ability to Transmute for Sphere effects like Lodestone Golem and Trinisphere, or do you find that the additional countermagic that Flusterstorm gives is enough to overcome the post-board combo matchups?
Not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but GerryT recently posted an article about a white version of this deck, piloted by Joe Lossett: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28717_.html.
The deck still has 8 planeswalkers (albeit only two Tezzerets), but it also has the four main-deck Chalices, Thopter combo, plus a Stoneforge Mystic package.
Let's talk about Joe's list - apologies for the Copy/paste of my response to GerryT:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian;
Check out my Legacy UBTezz Primer. Chalice of the Void: Keeping Magic Fair.
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Playing since '96. Brief forced break '02-04. Former/Idle Judge since '05. Told Smmenen to play faster at Vintage Worlds.
-----
Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy', as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. This is an idiotic metric.
If "we" play The Abyss and the opponent has a TNN. It wont be be affected by this effect. The opponent needn't sacrifice his TNN.
Is it right?
Hey, y'all, I'm relatively new to Tezzerator - been playing it in one or two events a week for about three months now - so I'd love some feedback on my list.
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darkwater Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Baleful Strix
1 Go for the Throat
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Opal
4 Dimir Signet
1 Talisman of Dominance
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
** sideboard **
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Trinisphere
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Damnation
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated
About some of my choices:
- My metagame is very fair - lots of Abrupt Decays - so Trading Post has had a lot of utility. I've won games by discarding cards to keep my hand empty for Ensnaring Bridge, made Goats to protect my planeswalkers (and block Goblin Piledriver), and sacrificed superfluous artifacts or dying tokens to either retrieve something from the 'yard or draw a card. It's a bit clunky, but it's worked for me so far. If I had to cut cards, though, it's certainly a contender for a first cut.
- I play a higher artifact land count (3) than most lists because I want to win more often with a Tezz ultimate and I play a miser's Mox Opal, which I've found to be pretty good. It's easy for some decks to craft a plan against you if they can always predict how much mana you'll have, so I've liked the Mox as a form of surprise ramp. It could certainly be switched to a Talisman, though.
- With no -drops in the main, I've liked a singleton Darkwater Catacombs. I'm not sold on Creeping Tar Pit, though, especially with the two maindeck Ensnaring Bridges. Perhaps this should be a third City of Traitors. And two Underground Seas is a card availability issue. Ideally, I'd like one or two more.
- Spellskite has been really good. I wouldn't leave home without it. Witchbane Orb might be too cute, but it neuters decks like Burn, Storm and Pox, all players in my meta. I haven't gotten to cast Liliana of the Veil yet, as it's a new addition to the sideboard, so I'm curious what everyone thinks of her. Karn Liberated is kind of a pet card and did work for Durward in his videos, so I'd like to try it.
This build slightly deviates from the standard lists, so I thought I'd post it to see if more experienced pilots could provide feedback.
Thanks, everyone!
Hello, what do you think about cutting Chalice for a really strong drop cc1?
Sensei Divining Top, Brainstorm/Ponder, Thoughtseize/Duress
BUGdelver
Delver
T.E.S.
- I enjoy doing broken stuff. I don't care if you're having fun as long as I am -
Imho, other decks will be better prepared to work with the "free passage" you are letting them in CMC1. You can play 10-12 cards in there, but most decks will play more cards in that CMC so I think it's key to this deck's success to avoid that and eliminate the CMC1 from your games.
A PRO doesn't draw, he tutors every turn.
JMLL
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