Good call - thanks! I think I would try 1 copy or even 2 if I find a slot (5cc is at the top of the curve) in my list instead of the single The Abyss. I know it is not the same function but I am a little bit dissapointing with having only one copy of a non transmutable card - I will move it to the side where I also play another copy of The Abyss.Originally Posted by GordonAndersson
My Abyss also went to the sideboard and right now I'm looking for another spot for a second Keranos. Dack has been good but not mind blowing like Keranos so I'll probably just swap one for one. There are so many cards I would like to fit in the list but so little room. I also run Liquimetal Coating with Dack and it has actually been good. Without Dack it up's Tezzerets ultimate count by one (make a land an artifact) or it could make one of you nonartifact-permanents artifacts for the sake of transmuting or making 5/5:s.
I also have the crucible+wasteland lock in there but I think that is a little greedy so it may see the cut for another Keranos or another Ensnaring Bridge (probably first priority) and two lands that actually produce the colors I need. But I do love it when you drop a turn one Crucible and turn two wasteland, the problem is that Wasteland isn't transmutable and Tez can't find it either so two copys are a little unreliable.
Here is my list:
4 Baleful Strix
2 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Keranos, God of Storms
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Dimir Signet
4 Mox Diamond
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard is under development but right now something like this:
2 Blood Moon
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 The Abyss
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Using Tapatalk
I like your list a lot! However, I think that Liquimetal Coating is a little bit clanky...I know it is a dream together with Dack Fayden but I prefer to use a Transmute on a Thopter/Sword piece or on an Ensnaring Bridge instead of the Liquimetal Coating.
I see you don´t play any kind of removal. No love for Engineered Explosives? Playing Mox Diamonds allows you to cast EE with 3 or 4 counters easily. I was also wondering why you play Blood Moon in the side if you already play the Crucible + Wastelands package (you should probably play one more Wasteland to make the package effective) - I personally think that you will need more basic lands if you want to run blood moon.
If you want some spots, you may try -1 Fow and move it to the sideboard or -1 Transmute (they are a little bit more difficult to cast with this version without Talismans).
By the way I love this deck, T1 Chalice is soooo powerful.
Thanks! Yes it is and it probably will get cut but right now it actually does some crazy things like steel a Bob T2.
That is why I want to main at least 2 bridges, EE I don't like because I can't transmute for it if I wan't it on anything else than 0. As I said, the sideboard is just 15 random cards I'm trying out. Probably the crucible lock will be cut for more colored mana and Blood Moon will be a sideboard plan against greedy decks because this deck operates quite well under a blood moon with the diamonds and signets, but yes, a second island would be nice.
T1 Chalice is reason enough to play this deck
I've been thinking about the same cuts but I haven't tried them out yet. It's a work in progress and one idea right now is also to move Dack Fayden to the sideboard because all the other planeswalkers and Keranos is better in most matchups.
Using Tapatalk
I really like the idea of the red splash and am gonna give it a go at a Legacy event this Sunday. Here's what I'm considering running:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mox Diamond
3 Dimir Signet
4 Baleful Strix
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Force of Will
1 Dack Fayden
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
*** sideboard ***
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Trinisphere
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Trading Post
1 Misdirection
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Some of these numbers are due to card availability; I only own two Jaces, three Force of Wills, one Transmute Artifact and zero Crucible of Worlds. I'll explain the choices that aren't.
- My metagame is very fair with only a sprinkling of Delver - lots of Jund, DnT, Merfolk, Maverick, Lands, etc. - so I'm playing a 3:1 main/sideboard split of Chalice of the Void. I only want to cast it for 1 (and occasionally 0), so having redundant copies in game 1 doesn't do a ton for me.
- I like one Engineered Explosive and one Ratchet Bomb as artifact removal. EE can't effectively be found with Transmute and doesn't always jive with Sol lands, so having a T1 or tutor-able Bomb has often been helpful.
- I'm running three artifact lands to make Tezz's ultimate more effective and provide more fodder for Thopter Foundry. Oftentimes I have Ensnaring Bridge and Foundry in play and want to put a clock on my opponent without sacrificing a high impact artifact, so having a few artifact lands in the list helps.
- Since I'm playing two Sword of the Meek, I've liked [CARDS]Thirst for Knowledge in lieu of more Transmute Artifact. At the worst, it's a blue card to pitch to FoW. Plus, since I'm only running one Dack Fayden, I have more ways to discard for a potential Goblin Welder plan post-sideboard.
- As for the 'board, Spellskite has been amazing, thwarting Abrupt Decay as well as Combo's bounce spells that target my hate. Highly recommend it. Witchbane Orb helps me against Storm, Burn, Pox, Jund and Painter (because they can't target me with Intuition nor Grindstone). Misdirection can function as an ersatz fourth FoW and gives me game against Decay and Hymn to Tourach, each prominent players in my metagame. Trading Post looks cute, but it's been very powerful for me. It can keep my hand size low for Ensnaring Bridge, make blockers for cards like Goblin Piledriver, draw cards when I need them and retrieve interred artifacts. With two Swords in the list, I can go straight to Value Town. Also, I could probably use a way to deal with Null Rod, as it crops up occasionally, but I don't know if it's necessary.
- Cards I'm considering somewhere in the 75: Karn Liberated for grind-y games, Engineered Plague, a third Bridge in the side
Let me know if y'all have any critiques. Hopefully I run well on Sunday!
I took 1st at a small local yesterday. It was my first time playing the deck outside of testing. It seems really good and is a very fun deck.
This is the list I used:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Baleful Strix
4 Dimir Signet
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thopter Foundry
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Force of Will
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Staff of Nin
//Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lodestone Golem
2 Massacre
The I liked the list a lot. The only changes I would make are definitely fit a pithing needle in the SB. I forgot how important that card is.
EE and Staff seems like the weakest MD cards.
The helm package was awesome. I even brought in JUST the helm against MUD and it won the game for me once I established control.
Cage is basically in there for elves (since I am already good on GY hate). but having essentially 5 Cages and 4 leylines is nice, making the dredge matchup a bye and reanimator have to cast S&T into my bridges. I would like a tutorable card that is better than elves (if such a thing exists). I was thinking maybe cursed totem or Jitte, but something that dodges decay would be even better. Any insight here would be appreciated. Bonus points if its also good against death and taxes. In my testing, elves and D&T seemed to be 2 tougher matchups.
Was testing one copy of Keranos, God of Storm (probably not enough testing or not enough copies of it) but I found that it was not either relevant or impressive when hit the board (although it was FoWed like 2 or 3 times which means it was "dangerous" at that moment). The main problem is that it is a 5cc card that does nothing the turn it enters the battlefield...absolutely nothing (unless you have reached devotion which is very difficult). In paper Keranos is very sweet but 80% of times you would prefer to play a Tezzeret or a Jace. If you are playing against a control deck, Dack Fayden is probably better as it filters your deck and enables you to play a threat every turn while recicling your bad draws...
I am considering playing 1 more Dack Fayden and maybe a copy of Liquimetal Coating (it could work with 3 Dacks). On the other hand, I am also considering the possibility of playing Punishing Fire / Grove of Burnwillows package. I use to have problems against a T2 stoneforge mystic into Batterskull but maybe Baleful Strix is enough.
EE is only really at its best in a Mox Diamond build. When it caps out at 2 it's a lot less valuable than something easily tutorable like Ratchet Bomb.
I'm not sure if that artifact you want exists, but you can shore up those matchups a bit by changing your Massacres to Deluges or something. The D&T matchup is VERY build dependent, as a build with multiple copies of The Abyss backed up by a few Deluges/EE/other sweepers is very favored against that deck. I'll agree that Elves is somewhat rough unless you have a hand with Chalice AND Force - and even then you can still lose to a Decay. The best strategy against them is just to try to overload their Decays.
The reason that some people like to play Keranos in their Miracles decks is because they can control what they're drawing every turn with relative ease, allowing them to switch from Lightning Bolt to Howling Mine as necessary. We can't, and the randomness is just too much for this (already somewhat inconsistent) deck to handle.
Hey all, quick question: what kinds of matchups do we bring in the helm combo, aside from obvious things like dredge and other graveyard strategies? That is, what decks do we need the combo aspect for?
This might be a stupid question, but I am fairly new to the deck, so bear with me. I was wondering what to helm of Obedience is for, as I don't see a way to actually deck the opponent in most decks http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=66558 like this one for instance. I don't have much experience with the deck, so any responses are greatly appreciated, I will hopefully start reading the primer today if I have the free time, but the explanations on Helm or any other general advice about the deck is, again, greatly appreciated.
As you play the deck more, you'll start to notice that people will often side in Rest in Peace against us as a way to shut off Thopter/Sword. Helm is a miser's out to that, allowing us to win on the spot against an unprepared opponent.
Ok, so you board it in against decks like D&T, Miracles, UWR devler, or any white deck that shows it in game 2 (assuming you won game 1)?
Basically.
K, thanks a ton.
Hey all, just wanted to check in with a weekly TO from last night.
First, my list:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
3 Talisman of Dominance
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Damnation
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
Side:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
I was trying to avoid all of the toolbox-y one-of's in favor of a more streamlined approach. I really didn't like a lot of the silver bullets and I was winning games off Thopter/Sword, so more copies of the actual win-con seemed like a good idea. The Lodestone Golems were a late addition because I saw three burn decks and two Elves decks in the room.
Matches were against burn (W 2-0), 4-color Delver (W 2-0), the mirror (L 0-2), and BUG Delver (W 2-1).
Round 1, against a fairly new player who was just breaking into Legacy, and doing so in the easiest way possible. He still had cards like Magma Jet and Searing Blood (yes, that one) in his board because he hadn't found enough Bridges or whatever the real cards were.
- Game 1, I mulled to four. My 7 was Jace, Thirst, another three-drop, and four lands. My 6 and my 5 were both one-landers. Anywho, he proceeded to do his thing for a few turns, but eventually started flooding out pretty hard (I think I saw 8 basics on his side when it was over). By about turn 5 or 6, I was finally able to land a Chalice on one, then I followed it with a Chalice on three (Rift Bolt, Vortex), then I managed to rip a Thopter Foundry to pair with the Sword of the Meek I had run out much earlier. The final straw this game was when I was at 10 life and had Thopter combo out. He cast two Searing Blazes with landfall, plus a Fireblast for what would have been lethal, except that my untapped Ancient Tomb could tap for black off the singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth so that I could make one more Thopter and stabilize at one life.
- Game 2 was not close. Turn 2 Strix, turn 3 Lodestone Golem, turn 4 Lodestone Golem were way too much to handle.
Round 2 was against 4-color Delver. I admit that my notes from this game were not very good, but I do remember him loathing all the Chalice of the Voids in the room (2 Tezzeret decks and one MUD Stax).
- Game 1, I mulled to six and he mulled to five. My hand had double Strix, which was more than enough for the two Delvers he wasn't able to flip for several turns. Eventually, I found Thopter combo for the win.
- Game 2, he opened with a nutty draw on the play and crushed me. I remember a very early Delver, then a Young Pyromancer, then I took about 10 damage and died.
- Game 3, I had a turn 2 Chalice on one, and eventually found enough Thopters to win.
Round 3 was against the other Tezzeret player. This wasn't a very exciting match. In both games, he resolved more than one planeswalker, and I did not, so he won them both.
Round 4, against BUG Delver.
- Game 1, I think I mulled down to four again. He had a Deathrite Shaman on turn 1 that did a lot of early work. He followed it with a Hymn and then a True-Name Nemesis. He also had the Abrupt Decay for my Bridge.
- Game 2 was pretty epic. He managed to get an early Deathrite again, eventually followed by a Hymn, a Goyf a Jitte, a TNN, a Sylvan Library, and a Liliana. However, I was able to find and cast two Bridges AND assemble Thopter combo to stabilize. He died to at least nine Thopter tokens with all of the above permanents still on the table.
- Game 3, I had a turn 0 Leyline of the Void that shut off his Deathrite Shaman, then a turn one Chalice, then a Trinisphere, then I even ripped my Helm off the top on turn 5 or 6 for the win.
The question I was trying to answer last night was whether or not it was better to run the silver bullets or more copies of the core combo pieces. Honestly, I think there's room for both in my list.
- I'm putting the fourth Polluted Delta in my list for sure. The only time I ever cast Jace, I needed to Brainstorm, and I was never able to shuffle away the garbage.
- Ensnaring Bridge was once again an all-star.
- Thirst for Knowledge was awful. The card draw was fine, but at three mana it was in a clunky spot on the curve.
- The only time I drew Damnation, it was rotting in my hand. I still like the card, but it's probably better in the board. Not sure how it compares to Toxic Deluge, but I feel like paying life to wrath away Goyfs is miserable.
- Lodestone Golem was also quite solid for me. It's basically the same effect as Thalia, except it beats harder and works better in multiples.
- Still haven't seen my Cursed Totem yet.
- The other Tezz player had a copy of Witchbane Orb in his board. Had I remembered that card, it would certainly have been in my board as well (probably for that last Tezzeret that I threw in right before the start).
Next week, my list will probably be something like this:
-1 Island
+1 Polluted Delta
-2 Thirst for Knowledge
+2 Tezzeret the Seeker
-1 Tezzeret the Seeker (side)
+1 Witchbane Orb (side)
Basically I'm gonna see if big Tezz is any good. I would have liked to try main-deck Lodestone Golems, but my blue count for Force of Will is already pretty low. On that note, if anyone has any good ideas for how to increase the blue card count in this deck, I'd love to hear them.
If you're not liking Damnation in your meta and the thought of having to Deluge a goyf away makes you cringe a bit, you might want to try The Abyss in that slot. It works a lot like our planeswalkers in that once you cast it, it just sits there and accumulates value. Resolving that card is basically game over against any kind of Delver deck as long as you continue to play the game.
If people are splashing red in tez control, is mishra an option or too cute? As a 4 mana spell it lives through abrupt decays, has a body that can take a bolt, and will win you the game if left unchecked. It. Is 3 colors to cast which is tricky, but in a build that utilizes Dack, this seems good.
Win you the game if left unchecked? Not really. Sure, I can tutor up another Foundry if I cast one, but wasn't the first one good enough anyway? Am I ever going to want to tutor up additional Chalices on zero? And, in the occasion where we're casting Signets or Talismans into this, we're already at 5 mana and don't need to have any more really. Sure, it's sweet as hell with Baleful Strix, and maybe you can get some value with Dack, but the rest of the time it seems like it would be a 4-mana do nothing.
That's not even considering how you might make room for the card... You would ideally want to replace an existing card near the top of the curve rather than shaving from the lower end of the curve (reducing numbers of the very things you want to be playing into this card seems less than ideal), and there is no way it is better than Tezzeret or Jace.
I could be missing something, but Mishra just seems bad.
How is the Shardless BUG matchup with this deck? I read the primer and took note of the key cards, but there isn't much info as far as approximate percentages. Any thoughts?
That matchup is very draw dependent. We have a lot of cards and plays in our deck that they just can't beat, but they are trying to get to the same point in the game that we are and can do a lot of stuff we can't beat. Baleful Strix is both a blessing and a curse here, as it blocks their Tarmogoyf and also makes it really big. Liliana also sucks.
On the flip side, they basically can't ever beat The Abyss, and a turn 2 planeswalker is nuts here.
Overall I'd say we're slightly disadvantaged but I wouldn't say that it is an AWFUL matchup.
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