Mox Diamond + Crucible seems interesting. With only 1 crucible, did you find yourself transmuting for it a lot? By cutting talismans did you ever find yourself transmuting something you didn't want to?Originally Posted by Undomian
I find myself transmuting for Crucible a lot not because of its interaction with Mox Diamond (though that is a definite plus), but rather because recurring Wastelands is stupidly good. I never really found myself transmuting something I would rather not transmute away because of the lack of Talismans. Usually I end up transmuting a Baleful Strix or one of the Signets after I've stabilized my mana, or sometimes even transmuting an extra Chalice rotting in my hand into something that would otherwise win me the game even if it does mean that I two-for-one myself.
I'm considering investing in this deck for SCG Cleveland coming up in two weeks or so. I notice the discussion has died down a bit on this deck - are people finding it to struggle in the current metagame? Are there any changes from Chris Anderson's SCG STL that people have found to be definite improvements so far? I have been testing the list on MODO for a week or so and quite like it. Thanks!
The deck is still fine in my opinion (I'm still pushing it and plan to keep doing so at the GP later this year), people probably just don't play it much because it costs just as much as T1 legacy decks that have better average performance rates.
Lost in the top 4 of a small GPT today. Deck was the same as before but with a few small SB changes. In the swiss, I beat Miracles (2-0), 4C Bant (I think?)(2-0), and Sneak & Show (2-1) and had a loss to Goblins (0-2). The Gobbos match went as it usually does, as he crushed me in 2 games even after I Infested him twice in G2. Went into top 4 as first seed, and lost to Miracles in 2 games due to some bad draws on my part and some great draws/play on his part (got blown out by StP in G2 because I expected him to side it out). In G1 of the Miracles match, I kept something to the effect of Swamp, Fetch, City, Diamond, Abyss, Bridge, and Force in game 1, and decided to mull it because it didn't really do anything against his deck. I got punished for this badly when I mulled into oblivion and quickly lost to a resolved Elspeth. Game 2 he plowed my CTP that would have killed his Jace, EE'd + Terminus'd my Thopter plan, and had the Force to get my second Foundry as his Jace got me. The deck is definitely still viable, and I think I could have taken down at least the Miracles player with some tighter play on my part. Not sure how I would have fared against the S&S player again, though, as that's almost as bad as Goblins in terms of matchup percentages IMO.
I am playing something very close to Chris Anderson's list with a slightly different SB, and I'm curious - how is the RUG matchup for everyone else? Either I'm making terrible keeps, running up against God draws, or I'm sideboarding terribly, because I'm losing almost all of them. The fundamental issues seem to be that we're weak to Wasteland, our PWs are sort of soft to an early board presence, and we have a bunch of do-nothing cards that they can allow to simply resolve, allowing some "virtual" card advantage - they can focus on countering stuff like Bridge, Transmute Artifact, or artifact sweepers. Here is my list and SB - how would you board?
Lands (22)
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures (4)
4 Baleful Strix
Planeswalkers (8)
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dimir Signet
3 Talisman of Dominance
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Dimir Charm
Sideboard (15)
2 Duress
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Damnation
1 Perish
1 Trinisphere
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Dimir Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
So how do you board against RUG with the above? Do you take out the Force Wills because of the card disadvantage and Daze/Spell Pierce, or do you keep them in try and stave off the early creatures or defend a Chalice on 1? Do you bring in the Lodestone Golems? Is Jace bad? Tormod's Crypt to shrink Goose (maybe Goyf)?
In a vacuum, I think I'd want the Meekstone, the Perish, and both Damnations. I'd be somewhat certain that I'd want the Duress's to fight their cheap counterspells. I'd be on the fence about Tormod's Crypt, Dimir Charm, and the Lodestone Golems. I'd probably try +2 Duress, +1 Meekstone, +1 Perish, +2 Damnation, -4 Force of Will -1 Dimir Charm -1 Jace. Dimir Charm only hits unflipped Delvers, and seems a little loose. Thoughts?
I think I'd add Lodestones before I'd add Duress. The ability of Lodestone is very relevant and they need a Bolt or it's a very good wall against Goyf/Goose. Also Trinisphere has served me well. It can be even better than Chalice because it "stops" FoW and Daze too.
I do not like Damnations against RUG very much. Double Black makes it slow against Stifle and Wasteland, especially if you have to play around taxing counters. A good RUG player will never play more than two creatures max, limiting the value. I think The Abyss is better in that match up if you want to compare 4 drop creature mass removal. On the other hand I lost to 2 1/1 Geese after starting the game with T0 Leyline, T2 The Abyss, so it's not perfect either. A second Ratchet Bomb might also be something to consider.
If they have a fast creature, some mana disruption and a couple of counters, it's definitely a deck you can easily loose to, but then again so do most other decks.
Hey guys, this is currently the only deck I own, and I run a pretty stock list. I don't have the cash to make a huge investment in anything right now and I only get a chance to play magic once a week. I play legacy every Tuesday (I am still learning the deck, I admit that), but I can not seem to do anything right. My meta is two burn decks, dredge, reanimator, maverick and 2 elves decks. Anyone have some advice? I'm not a bad player, but I think I have won about 2 out of my last 14 matches. Just has been a struggle.
FYI My SB is as follows:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Notion Thief
2 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
Once you go Legacy...
Without knowing your maindeck, it's almost impossible to figure out what might be going on.
Having played the matchup many times, this deck vs Burn is terrible. Unless you get the nuts and can lock them out completely, or can establish a very early Thopter/Sword combo, you will assuredly lose.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I agree with ElricTheWhiteWolf. However given your meta you can easily drop the notion thief from the side alongside with the golems (too slow for your combo matchups) and the cursed totem (good only against maverick since elves can Natural Order for the win): I would add 3 chill and another perish.
I would also swap a plague for a night of souls' betrayal since its out of abrupt decay range.
Ignorance is strength
So, has anyone else seen this?
I'm currently playing some number of Infest in my SB, and Deluge is basically a straight upgrade to that. It is easier to cast (especially early against something like a Lackey), and you can get larger creatures with it as well. There is also that new white removal spell, but the double white requirement is pretty rough.Code:Toxic Deluge 2B, Sorcery As an additional cost to cast Toxic Deluge, pay X life. All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.
I've seen it and was planning to get some as soon as possible for testing at least in the board, possible (depending on meta after Mini-Progenitus) even in the maindeck.
Things I didn't like about our previous unconditional (aka not Perish, Ratchet Bomb) sweeper options were: getting stopped by Gaddock (Damnation, The Abyss) or having BB in their casting cost (Damnation, Infect), making them disproportionally slow with the Sol-land-manabase. This solves both of those problems. With Thopter/Sword, Tezz-ult and Wurmcoil we have enough lifegain to support the extra cost.
As for splashing white: There are definitely some nice things I still miss from the old UWB-Thopter/Sword lists with E.Tutor and Mox Opal that seem like an earlier version of what this deck has become. Especially E.Tutor adding a tutor for enchantments like The Abyss or In the Eye of Chaos to name only two. But the mana base gets soooo fragile adding another color. Although I have to say your list seems like a better starting point with the switch from 6 mana rocks to Mox Diamonds. I can't see an Uwb list supporting Wasteland though. And I don't see the spoiled card being powerful enough to construct the mana base in a way that it can reliably support not only a small white splash but XWW.
Here is the full list as I have been playing it:
Main Deck:
4 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dimir Signet
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Talisman of Dominance
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Damnation
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard:
1 Cursed Totem
2 Trinisphere
1 Notion Thief
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Ratchet Bomb
Once you go Legacy...
As we come up on the GP, I've been thinking more and more about how I'd like to rework my sideboard. Currently, I'm playing something like this:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinisphere
1 Dimir Charm
1 Abrupt Decay *
* A note on Abrupt Decay - I've been playing an off-color dual (currently Tropical Island) in my list for awhile combined with Mox Diamonds in order to put EE on 3, and its been absolutely phenomenal. I imagine that it will be even better against the True-Name Nemesis decks I expect to see at DC. As an alternative answer to problematic permanents, I've been wanting to play Decay in the board.
With the resurgence of Reanimator and the amount of Dredge and such I expect to see (it is a cheap deck that isn't currently being hated on, so I'm thinking it is going to be more prominent than usual), I don't feel comfortable taking out Leyline. It is also reasonable as a direct sub for Thopter/Sword in my MD against Storm. Helm itself is one of the looser slots in my current configuration, but I like the upside of playing it for the occasional free win. It is also nice to board it in against decks that will probably board in RiP (Miracles) to counter Thopters for those same free wins.
Against any kind of aggressive deck, my current plan is to bring in the Deluges, the EE, the Dimir Charm, and the Decay. For combo, LSGs, Trinisphere, and the Charm. I also usually bring in EE in these matchups if I'm expecting to see Empty the Warrens.
I feel that the flex slots here are Helm, the third Deluge, and the Dimir Charm. While I am somewhat satisfied with the current configuration, I have thought about bringing in some combination of a second Decay and/or a Pithing Needle, though I'm not 100% on that. Thoughts?
I've been changing my list a bit also, here's what I'm currently testing:
3 trinisphere
2 wurmcoil engine
4 baleful strix
4 lodestone golem
1 ratchet bomb
1 tezzeret, the seeker
3 jace, the mind sculptor
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
4 chalice of the void
2 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
2 transmute artifact
2 dimir signet
4 talisman of dominance
1 seat of the synod
1 island
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
1 academy ruins
3 darkslick shores
board
2 toxix deluge
4 leyline of the void
2 ensnaring bridge
1 ratchet bomb
1 helm of obedience
1 phyrexian revoker
4 force of will
The theory is: don't use FoW as protection for your bombs, just play more bombs (or cards that prevent the opponent from playing the game). Have not gotten enough testing in to judge if it is really better though. The deck can also switch to aggro really fast between Tezz, AoB, Lodestones and Wurmcoil. Don't like that I'm down to one sweeper in the main I have to admit, but Lodestone, Chalice and Trini so far have been quite good at buying time against a lot of decks. FoW is in the board to protect against fast combo. I went up to 4 City+Tombs to up the chance of getting 4 mana on turn two, might even try the third Signet.
Big Tezz has been quite nice so far I have to admit. Wanted to try him for quite a while. Getting the mana is not that hard and most of the time it is better then the third Transmute, even if the +1 ability is not used to its maximum potential in this deck.
As for boarding, I'm in the same boat as Undomian. Last local tournament had three Dredge decks, a Reanimator and Lands, making Leyline very nice at the moment. As long as I'm playing Leylines, I will always go for the misers Helm. Too good at stealing random games, especially against opponents boarding in Rest in Peace to stop Thopter-Combo and walking into Transmute->Helm. Ensnaring Bridges are a nod to Sneak and Show, which has been putting up quite a showing and that deck has been giving me a few problems in the past.
I've considered the Seeker for awhile, but was always put off by the fact that I'd be running 5 Tezzeret in my deck if I did so. Have you ended up with more instances of extra copies of Tezzeret sitting in your hand with that inclusion, or has it not really come up?
Also, if anyone missed it, Jody Keith got 16th at the latest SCG with this:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=60565
As I said, I have not played the list as much as I'd like, so maybe I was just lucky so far, but I did not notice a significant increase in dead draws with 5 Tezzerets. But I have to admit, I use planeswalkers quite aggressively, especially as I wanted the list to be more aggressive and a bit Stompy-like compared to your list, so I use the minus ability on Tezz, AoB, probably more often than average players. Without FoW in the maindeck, it is also reasonably probable that they will be able to counter or Bolt your first Tezzeret, so back-ups are live again. With the new rules concerning planeswalkers, the second or third one are never completely dead, which helps a lot.
I also had a situation come up against a player running Cabal Therapy. He knew I had both Tezzerets, but did not know how many or if I boarded one of them out. He know both of them would win me the game. He choose the one not in my hand. Might not come up very often, but there are situations where it helps to have different threats.
Is UB Tezz really that bad against Burn? Doesn't Chalice on 1 just shut them out pre-board? A card you could consider for the board is Witchbane Orb, as it shuts off burn spells, Tendrils of Agony, etc.
Ancient Tomb, non-basic mana base ensures their clock is faster.
An early Goblin Guide is also hard to deal with.
Bolt are flying left and right while you're trying to set up.
Burn is one of those decks that punish decks trying to play a longer game. Leaning heavily on Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere is one strategy here. Another is Sun Droplet in multiples.
West side
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The last two games I played with the deck against Burn were at GP Strausbourg. They went something like this:
G1: Fast Chalice, followed by Thopter-Combo 1-2 turns later, followed by FoWing the Price of Progress that would have killed me twice, followed by gaining 5+ life per turn.
G2: Fast Trini, followed by Wurmcoil 2 turns later, followed by FoWing his Vortex which would have killed me because I was so low already due to Ancient Tombs, followed by gaining 6 life per turn.
So yeah, I won the round, but it is pretty much like everyone said. Bad matchup you should definitely not be expecting to win the majority of games in. You need multiple things happening in the right order in a deck with minimal (at least compared to other blue decks) manipulation of your draws. The deck has the tools to win against Burn, but even if you draw them, it is verrrry close and if you miss even once, to quote Jaya Ballard: "Yes, I think "toast" is an appropriate description." Sun Droplet and Witchbane Orb seem like good cards to increase your chances, but even they will need some back up from the rest of your draws. A local player has been running an Orb in his board, but mainly as a concession to Storm, which makes up a larger part of the field, at least around here.
If somebody is interested: VanMeter's article on SCG this week is covering the deck and he will probably be running it at GP:DC. Looking forward to see if he makes any changes to his list. The way he writes the article, I doubt he will change much, maybe adding Toxic Deluge like many have been doing.
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