[Primer] Elves!

[comeback]

My current sideboard is:

- 1x null rod
- 3x cabal therapy
- 3x thoughtseize
- 2x surgical extraction
- 3x abrupt decay
- 2x bitterblossom
- 1x karakas ---> 1x crop rotation maindeck

In mainboard still preferring Scavenging Ooze vs Wren's Run Packmaster 'cuz still not yet recognized major issues vs Delver Bug/Team America. Is someone so kind to explain me reasons behind Wren's Run Packmaster over Scavenging Ooze?

What about Bitterblossom as 2nd turn hate vs Miracles?

[Julian23]

Streaming the MOCS SEASON FINALS with Elves. This is the only LEGACY PTQ of the entire year. Join us over at http://twitch.tv/itsJulian

Because of the high importance of this event, there will be a 5 minute delay and I won't be commentating. I need the focus.

[Lemnear]

My current sideboard is:

- 1x null rod
- 3x cabal therapy
- 3x thoughtseize
- 2x surgical extraction
- 3x abrupt decay
- 2x bitterblossom
- 1x karakas ---> 1x crop rotation maindeck

In mainboard still preferring Scavenging Ooze vs Wren's Run Packmaster 'cuz still not yet recognized major issues vs Delver Bug/Team America. Is someone so kind to explain me reasons behind Wren's Run Packmaster over Scavenging Ooze?

What about Bitterblossom as 2nd turn hate vs Miracles?

You can't Bolt or Decay Packmaster nor can your opponent ever attack with his ground forces as long as WRP is in play. Unlike the Craterhoof it's an affordable GSZ target which dominates fair matchups especially powered with Cradle while even leaving a creature behind after a sweeper. It has nothing in common with Ooze and isn't even for the same matchups, so I wonder why you discuss both in the same sentence. Packmaster is a 4-mana bomb with immediate impact unlike Ooze which needs creatures in your graveyard to even grow out of Bolt-range or being able to successfully keep opposing Aggro in Check. Both cards aren't even in the same League.

Bitterblossom is no "hate" for Miracles. In fact, they can ignore the enchantment completely and simply keep dropping lands without eating too much damage which is all they want to do anyways until they decide to sweep the board once and flood it with 3+ Angels, which plain stomp your laughable 1/1 fairy you get each turn.

IMO both topics would answer themselves with enough testing done :/

[Zombie]

Bitterblossom's pressure vs. Miracles isn't solely from the tokens turning sideways. It's the card crapping out tokens in and of itself, because it supercharges Cradle and consequently makes hardcasting bombs easy and makes GSZ's go from 1-2 to 4 or 8 much more realistic. You don't need to be scared of a GSZ for Visionary that much. GSZ for Hoof=> Youdied because there are faerie tokens on the board? Much more so.

[Julian23]

BREAKINGS NEWS:

The MOCS Season Finals was...*drumroll*...AN ELVES MIRROR!

[Lemnear]

Bitterblossom's pressure vs. Miracles isn't solely from the tokens turning sideways. It's the card crapping out tokens in and of itself, because it supercharges Cradle and consequently makes hardcasting bombs easy and makes GSZ's go from 1-2 to 4 or 8 much more realistic. You don't need to be scared of a GSZ for Visionary that much. GSZ for Hoof=> Youdied because there are faerie tokens on the board? Much more so.

Does it interrupt your opponets gameplan to just Terminus the board in your attack step? No.

[ESG]

BREAKINGS NEWS:

The MOCS Season Finals was...*drumroll*...AN ELVES MIRROR!

Can we assume you won?

Bitterblossom's pressure vs. Miracles isn't solely from the tokens turning sideways. It's the card crapping out tokens in and of itself, because it supercharges Cradle and consequently makes hardcasting bombs easy and makes GSZ's go from 1-2 to 4 or 8 much more realistic. You don't need to be scared of a GSZ for Visionary that much. GSZ for Hoof=> Youdied because there are faerie tokens on the board? Much more so.

In my experience testing against Miracles, Elves is rarely able to generate enough mana to GSZ for Craterhoof. Gaea's Cradle is not much better than a Forest -- and is sometimes worse than a Forest -- after the first Terminus, and Terminus also Stone Rains you if you have a Dryad Arbor. For what it does, Bitterblossom is extremely slow. It helps Cradle a little, but waiting all those turns is just terrible. I like the card more against a build like Joe Lossett's, which leans on Jace and Vendilion Clique, rather than Ponder Miracles. Schonegger's list is very consistent in finding Entreat and making Angels on Turn 5 or 6, and that's too fast for Bitterblossom to get there. I would say Wren's Run Packmaster does a better job generating tokens than Bitterblossom. The matchup mostly revolves around Terminus. If Miracles fails to get off an early Terminus, Elves wins. If Miracles hits you with the early Terminus, it's hard to claw back before Miracles finds the second one, and then that's usually it. I like the Pithing Needle or Null Rod plan in conjunction with some way to counter or shut off Terminus. Also, has anyone tested Ankh of Mishra? Elves is able to get in a few points here and there, and Miracles usually has to make at least four land drops to win the game. With all of Miracles' fetches, it seems good in theory.

[lordofthepit]

Also, has anyone tested Ankh of Mishra? Elves is able to get in a few points here and there, and Miracles usually has to make at least four land drops to win the game. With all of Miracles' fetches, it seems good in theory.

I know you're almost always going to be the beatdown against Miracles, but Ankh of Mishra seems way too narrow to deserve inclusion in the 75 of a deck that runs Quirion Ranger. I can't see you bringing Ankh in against any matchup other than Miracles, and if it came down to it, I think Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Choke are all more threatening to a Miracles player while still having utility in other matchups.

[Tammit67]

Does it interrupt your opponets gameplan to just Terminus the board in your attack step? No.

I've tried both Bitterblossom and Garruk Wildspeaker. They both weren't good because they failed to change the dynamic of the matchup.

[D@N]

After trying bitterblossom, xenagos, and wrp I really don't think they can do much for us against miracles. Just getting a packmaster out against the fair decks with loads of removal is hard enough if the straight up don't remove the champ anyway. Then if most decks that she's good against are so far ahead on board that they will take the 2-1 to plow ahead and win. I'm just removing all the chaff and going back to a stock lost while searching for something new.

One card I did find but I think is to slow is kamahl, fist of krosa. If we can untap with him against miracles terminus becomes a liability and he can overrun the next turn. Downsides is that he's so much that we aren't likely to have 3+ mana to bottom their white sources/fetches. And he's only 3 toughness so fails the bolt test, does anyone else know of a dude like him for lower cmc that can animate lands?

[Havoc]

what is this craziness on SCG today. an elf mirror and then elves with main deck probes and sideboard bloodmoons

[Elfkid]

what is this craziness on SCG today. an elf mirror and then elves with main deck probes and sideboard bloodmoons

I dont know if probes are good, but the blood moons.. are quite strong, but trade my cradle for a mountain :/, dont like the idea xD

[AznSeal]

Holy cow. Blood Moon. Why haven't I ever thought of that. That's so sick....

[Jon]

Have you tested this?

[deviant]

Have you tested this?

Yeah, let's splash for a 4 mana sorcery that (probably) wins the game. The deck has been lacking that sort of effect.

[trevaftw]

So this elf deck made top 8, and just won and will be at least top 4:

1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
2 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Dryad Arbor

2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
4 Blood Moon
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
3 Thoughtseize

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=72577

[Havoc]

seriously do we need to look at blood moon as a real thing. guys doing really good with it

[Absolutflipz]

My issue with it, is that it doesn't really help that much against Miracles decks playing many more basics these days. His list looks pretty soft to Miracles.

I'm liking choke more, personally.

[Havoc]

4 chokes doesnt stop as much as blood moon or even back to basics do. he is soft to miracles but im just saying he could drop the 4th natural order and 1 moon and run to null rod or pithing needle for miracles. its just crazy that some of his wins are coming off of him resolving blood moon and people being blown out because they think he has no way to destroy or nuke their mana base

[trevaftw]

And now he is playing in the finals versus D&T