[Primer] Elves!

[lordofthepit]

he traditionally comes in against decks that can't interact with a huge hydra with protection.

That's what she said.

[yaWgnorW]

Decks that play Swords to Plowshares but not Terminus. I don't run Progenitus anymore, but he traditionally comes in against decks that can't interact with a huge hydra with protection. Death and Taxes used to be the place where he shined the most, but he's not as good now that Council's Judgment exists.

Yup, anything with white and access to StPs you'll want our hydra friend (everyone else other than my friend, since i only draw him...he's not my friend).

[uncletiggy]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

[ESG]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

I have played Terastodon before against Deathblade knowing that his postboard plan was a bunch of Supreme Verdicts. The nice thing about Natural Order is that there is no end to the targets. You could run any green creature in Magic: whatever fits your game plan. I personally would not take up too many sideboard slots with Natural Order targets, but feel free to experiment.

[uncletiggy]

That was kinda my point that wasting two sideboard slots on no targets feels wrong especially when the targets are functionally just big dumb beaters niether one wins the game when it lands or stunts your opponents game plan. They come in in already favorable matchups for the most part. Its been a long time since I played elves tho I want to get back behind the drivers seat but im not comfortable with the construction of the sideboard and want a better feel for why it looks the way it does and why the choices are necessary. Personally im leaning towards playing in bug colors.

[HammafistRoob]

That's what she said.

2008 Fail

[Rook1e]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

The Angel seems more than horrible against Storm? No impact at all?! What sm I missing (if anything)?

[Lemnear]

I think the No package has room for improvement. I see a lot of lists playing five targets in thier 75 2 hoof thar prog and worldspine, the last two seem marginally different in when youd want one or the other. Thar has applications and probably warrents a slot in the board but md seems questionable depending on your meta. I think the sun has set on unblockable fatty. Im gonna give the angel a whirl and see how she does. Seems good against burn, storm delver and random other decks tbd.

I don't see how the Angel should affect storm at all and discussing the impact of a card against Delver while viewing the resolution of Natural Order as given is pointless.

[Holly]

I don't see how the Angel should affect storm at all

They'd need 8 more spells to kill you with Grapeshot !

[Havoc]

I'll try the angel but not for the storm matchup. I'm looking at burn or where their game is to try the beatdown plan. I hear mini prog has nothing on it

[uncletiggy]

Id say the 4-8 more spells needed is better then a three turn clock in a matchup where your combo has been diluted. Also the angel stalls most board states offered by delver decks im not saying its right but I still dont understand why prog and the worm both have slots in the board. Which is the root of me posting if someone would like to comment on the question actually being asked?

Im not suggesting the angel as some super secret storm tech its primarily for burn, I was just offering up being semi relevant other places. these responses have been way out of context and generally unhelpful.

[Zombie]

Id say the 4-8 more spells needed is better then a three turn clock in a matchup where your combo has been diluted. Also the angel stalls most board states offered by delver decks im not saying its right but I still dont understand why prog and the worm both have slots in the board. Which is the root of me posting if someone would like to comment on the question actually being asked?

Im not suggesting the angel as some super secret storm tech its primarily for burn, I was just offering up being semi relevant other places. these responses have been way out of context and generally unhelpful.

You do realize that the Archangel will buy you a single turn vs. EtW and do nothing at all vs. Tendrils? Tendrils drains life, it doesn't do damage so Empyrial Archangel and Elderscale Wurm do nothing to it.

If I was looking to improve the NO package by diversifying the things our targets do, I'd probably look at Sigarda first or something.

[Lemnear]

Id say the 4-8 more spells needed is better then a three turn clock in a matchup where your combo has been diluted. Also the angel stalls most board states offered by delver decks im not saying its right but I still dont understand why prog and the worm both have slots in the board. Which is the root of me posting if someone would like to comment on the question actually being asked?

Im not suggesting the angel as some super secret storm tech its primarily for burn, I was just offering up being semi relevant other places. these responses have been way out of context and generally unhelpful.

You better do some research on how Tendrils of Agony and Empyrial Archangel interact or in fact, don't. You didn't even get the irony of Holly's Grapeshot post. Congratulations.

Progenitus is an option against decks with plenty of spot removal which can make it difficult to establish enough creatures to hoof your opponent and is slowly losing steam as Liliana and Toxic Deluge become more popular across the metagame. Worldspine Worm is a very resilient Natural Order target in matchups which contain powerful sweepers as a single Toxic Deluge or even the anhilator-trigger of Emrakul leaves 15 points of power on your side lf the table.

Empyrial does pretty much the same as Progenitus except being a 4-turn-clock and blockable compared to the Hydra Avatar. The only upside a resolved Archangel provides is as a life-buffer against Burn.dec. "Resolved" is also the issue against Delver-archetypes. Your Glimpse and NO are THE cards your opponent will counter at any given chance, so evaluating the impact of the creature here rather than the enabler is total nonsense.

[uncletiggy]

While incredibly condescending and unnecessarily elitistly done I finally have a legitimate answer to why both are played. Ill stick to ironing out a list myself as its obvious this thread is for discussing forest selection and posting tattoo pics.

[Lemnear]

While incredibly condescending and unnecessarily elitistly done I finally have a legitimate answer to why both are played. Ill stick to ironing out a list myself as its obvious this thread is for discussing forest selection and posting tattoo pics.

Well, the second response came harsh mainly because you repeated the flawed logic even after being hinted several times at the fact that Archangel does nothing on lifeloss.

While the tattoo is "just" a Symbol of true dedication to the archetype, the discussion about the choice of Forests and Arbors has a lot more substance than you give it credit for as you can squeeze out some more or less shady advantages in paper play and get flak for that. Sad if you missed that subtopic

[Havoc]

While incredibly condescending and unnecessarily elitistly done I finally have a legitimate answer to why both are played. Ill stick to ironing out a list myself as its obvious this thread is for discussing forest selection and posting tattoo pics.

Lemnear answered your question above about wurm and prog. the angel falls into the same category as ruric, if hes main and you hit high tide or storm you win or its near impossible for you to lose. if you have angel main, burn and aggro decks will have to push thru a lot of damage to reach you. wurm and ruric can be swords and prog and angel can be sacrificed, however all of them have the potential to be game ending if played right. i said before id try the angel verses things like deathblade, burn, really anything thats dealing damage to win. hell even in the mirror she could buy the the turn you need to go off so it could work. just have to playtest and see.

[Lemnear]

the angel falls into the same category as ruric, if hes main and you hit high tide or storm you win or its near impossible for you to lose.

-snip-

hell even in the mirror she could buy the the turn you need to go off so it could work. just have to playtest and see.

Mother of god ... Archangel does nothing against storm, High Tide or like any competitive Legacy Combo deck at all. All the Archangel does is stalling a few turns against Burn if you get her out before you drop dead. Period. It still can be easily removed by Liliana or Toxic Deluge if you play against Aggro-control in Form of BUG. Mind that pure aggro is dead since the printing of Terminus. Having a SB slot dedicated for burn alone which also needs setup in the form of NO + green creature is questionable.

In the mirror you sure don't want to waste your Natural Order on a creature absorbing 8 points of damage if your opponent could be able to just hoof you for 30+ right the next turn or two

[Havoc]

Mother of god ... Archangel does nothing against storm, High Tide or like any competitive Legacy Combo deck at all. All the Archangel does is stalling a few turns against Burn if you get her out before you drop dead. Period. It still can be easily removed by Liliana or Toxic Deluge if you play against Aggro-control in Form of BUG. Mind that pure aggro is dead since the printing of Terminus. Having a SB slot dedicated for burn alone which also needs setup in the form of NO + green creature is questionable.

In the mirror you sure don't want to waste your Natural Order on a creature absorbing 8 points of damage if your opponent could be able to just hoof you for 30+ right the next turn or two

the first parts was about ruric not the angel. i thought i showed that using the word he and not she as when i used she to show i had moved to the angel. everything your saying is what i said, angel does nothing against things that cause loss of life or draw cards and mill. and even if shes only for burn, burn has topped 8ed twice in the last 2 months on scg and was piloted by kids under 15. wouldnt be surprised if i saw a little surge due to GP new jersey around the corner. not like that decks going to take down the GP, just dont want to be unprepared for anything. also i have 3 people in my area playing burn so its not wrong to look at all options within reason unless it gets so bad we have to start running essence warden. his idea wasnt bad just not back up by games played with the angel or reasons other than shes good against burn. yes they can kill her but if i have to just survive 1 to 2 turns to set up the kill ill play what i have too. esper deathblade, RUG, BUG delver, DnT are all decks on the beatdown plan. they may not be straight aggro but last i checked they all kill you by creature beats. and i know we have a great match up against DnT but the rest have counter magic which ruins are day.

[uncletiggy]

You're wasting your breath even trying to defend the angel at this point. Ill test on my own and see how it does. There is no sense posting or discussing it here its already got some people pretty butt hurt. This is the same reaction I got to suggesting packmaster back when the deck played mirror entity and its now relevant. The european meta and the scg open series are completely different metas so a german player saying dont worry about burn is his perogative. I played burn four times in the last two opens with junk its more of a player and far more relevant to discuss then attempting to miss represent your board state with "shady" land selections or alters.

So I forgot the exact text on a card that sees no play. Congrats to all of you who are perfect. Seriously you're doing a great job at life.

[trevaftw]

Know what's good against burn, delver, and storm? Ruric thar.