[Primer] Elves!

[resmaster]

Against painter I prefer decay due to the uncounterable part. Vs SFM -> jitte the instant part is not so irrelevant.

for me the biggest threat in that matchup is Bloodmoon. This was also something we were able to witness yesterday. Sage won the game (even if GSZ'd for) while drawing Decays would have been worthless

I'm not advocating that Sage is not a great card. I even agree with you, as I think most of us, that the number of relevant targets, the fact that it is tutorable, the monocolor part make it a staple as a one-of MD, while decay is for sure a SB card. I can see a second in SB, but the remaining 3? and 0 decay?

my Main grief about Decay is the color and that it does absolutely nothing for your boardstate. While the color may not be the issue against Miracles, you might agree that killing counterbalance AND leaving a 2/1 body as a clock sounds spicy against a deck which is trying to grind us out of creatures which are also our source for mana. The option to kill annoying permanents without any tradeoffs in term of boardstate development or color requirements was the reason I wanted to test the option. I was not aware that US Miracles have such a high number on 3 cc spells. The most lists I saw in Europe were very light on them, so. I thought that the uncounterability would not be a selling point

Maybe Krosan Grip? A 2/2 split between grip and sage?

It does not demand black mana (although it costs 3), instant speed and cannot be answered. Thoughts?

[Kayradis]

Krosan Grip?
Wutz?
This isn't modern.

[resmaster]

Krosan Grip?
Wutz?
This isn't modern.

Maybe I'm in the wrong forum then...

Anyway, I believed the discussion was about being able to break something like CounterTop, and the issues related to it were:

a) Needing black mana;
b) Being counterable;

Krosan Grip ALMOST solves both things. Regardless of format.

(FYI: I play 1 Sage MD, 3 Decay SB and I'm ok with that for now.)

[Kayradis]

I think 1 Sage and 3 Decays SB are alright.
They get rid of all the problems we could encounter.

[AznSeal]

Maybe Krosan Grip? A 2/2 split between grip and sage?

It does not demand black mana (although it costs 3), instant speed and cannot be answered. Thoughts?

The issue with grip is that if you want to hit counterbalance, abrupt decay is strictly better. Black mana is a non-issue when we have so many fetchlands, DRS, and miracles not running wasteland.

If you want to hit top, then null rod/pithing needle are better.

[resmaster]

The issue with grip is that if you want to hit counterbalance, abrupt decay is strictly better. Black mana is a non-issue when we have so many fetchlands, DRS, and miracles not running wasteland.

If you want to hit top, then null rod/pithing needle are better.

I think that too. I'm playing with 2 Birchlore Rangers right now, and black mana is even less of an issue.

I was just trying to help the two other guys that were talking about 4 Sages vs 1 Sage + Decays, I was not defending krosan grip as the best option hahahaha

As I already said, I play 1 RS + 3 AD and I'm ok with that. And 2 Needles for Top also.

[trevaftw]

I currently run one mainboard sage, one sideboard sage, and 3 abrupt decay. I kind of want to go down to 2 decay and add in a krosan grip because humility dodges abrupt decay and shuts down sage.

[dte]

Playing K-grip while decay and sage are available seems totally wrong. Humility sees almost no play and should not be taken into account except for very local and particular meta.

The point is more that Sage is the best available disenchant-effect for us by far. Decay add the utility of killing creatures, which can be relevant versus delver.decks, D&T, burn (eidolon like sage but lavamancer in addition).
Liliana too sometimes can be targeted by decay but that's not the good reason to play it.

Or maybe I miss something?

[HSCK]

Killing Top is a pretty nice usage for K Grip.

[dte]

Killing Top is a pretty nice usage for K Grip.

Yes. But top is played by one deck. One bad MU maybe, but only one. Playing a SB with 12 cards dedicated to miracles will only make you lose other MUs.
Additionally, Needle is more efficient vs top than grip, cost only 1, and is usefull in many other MUs.

[HSCK]

2 Decay, 1 Grip, 2 Needle. One bad match up that is one of the top performing decks in the meta. I'll take the chance on having one K Grip over the 3rd Decay. Also, what exactly are you losing anyway because of this swap?

[Echelon]

2 Decay, 1 Grip, 2 Needle. One bad match up that is one of the top performing decks in the meta. I'll take the chance on having one K Grip over the 3rd Decay. Also, what exactly are you losing anyway because of this swap?

Well... Grip can't eat Goyfs, Delvers, Lilliana's or SFM's whilst killing the same targets as Abrupt Decay for the match-up you find so important, making it's only defining trait the abilitie to kill Top whilst being arguably worse in every other occasion. Heck, it can even be countered by Counterbalance, making it possibly useless in the MU you really want to use it for.

[PaulJordan]

I've been on vacation for the past week, but was able to sneak some MTGO in at nights. I'm now about a month into learning Legacy and more importantly, ELVES! and have a solid 25 matches under my belt (16-9 overall). Below are some things I've learned as well as some comments on topics in this thread.

I have an odd SB currently with a lot of singletons just so I can test various cards out. So far, nothing ground-breaking. The most curious cards I've tried are Prowess of the Fair and Wilt-Leaf Leige. Prowess hasn't done much as I honestly haven't faced a lot of mass removal and when I have it hasn't been drawn. I'm pretty sure it's just a cute card and not really a game changer. Worldspine Worm is likely just straight up better since A) it is searchable, B) it beats Emrakul C) it doesn't require things to die for it to do something. Wilt-leaf was surprisingly useful the one time it has come up against shardless BUG, not against discard but as protection against golgari charm.

In general I think I'm sideboarding much less than some of you are, I don't know if that's good or bad. I don't think I've brought in more than 6 cards in a matchup.

I have the blue splash, but am currently thinking it isn't necessary. It's nice, sure, but honestly I just want another basic forest and don't feel the need for it. I no longer have Edric in the main so it's even less necessary. I suspect there's a lot fewer Wastelands on MTGO than there are IRL which makes this even more important. I'm on 20 lands and 61 cards plus a Llanowar and still feel light sometimes (not often). If the Swan Songs are really needed, I might consider a Trop (am I the only one who wants to call Tropical Island a FOWest?) in the SB if the room can be found. I would also likely swap out Llanowar for a 2nd Birchlore. The only matchup, I think, that Songs are really needed is Miracles. And it'd take more than them to turn that in our favor so it may not be worth it.

Abrupt Decay is the truth.

Wren's Run Packmaster has been effective for me. I have 1 in the MD now and it comes up surprisingly often. I'm a simple man, I don't need to attach for 30 on turn 2 (I'm not opposed to it, of course). I'm fine making 2 or 5 wolves per turn and winning that way. I'm just really surprised how often this has happened.

I'm really liking Reclamation Sage, and it seems others are thinking that a 2nd in the 75 is worth discussion. He just solves a lot of problems. He's like a pointy-eared, searchable, reuseable Abrupt Decay. Kind of.

I've kept a number of 7 card hands that had either Hoof or Progenitus because the other 6 were good. This could be wrong. One game I ended up with 2 Hoofs and a Progenitus in my hand. Ended up hardcasting a Hoof, ETB got stifle'd. Next turn I hardcast the other for the win. The moral is that I got lucky and should probably mulligan better.

I frequently find myself without the ability to use all of the triggers available. Like, I'll be untapping something already untapped just to get the [return a forest or return an elf] effect. I've looked at replays and don't think I've sequenced incorrectly in these cases (though I have in many, many other cases). I'm curious, is this something that happens frequently even to experienced ELVES! players or is this a sign that I'm still a novice (something I already know, but am not sure to what degree)?

Overall I've learned a lot both about the deck and the format. I'm really enjoying playing constructed Magic for the first time in probably over a decade. GPNJ can't come soon enough, thanks for all of your help.

@magicPJ on Twitter

[Nuke is Good]

I have this deck built in MTGO and I think it's absolutely amazing. I have a good amount of the deck built on paper based on what I own so if the list looks suboptimal its a WIP. However I cannot afford the 4th Gaea's Cradle for a while, is it fair to use a Priest of Titania as a stopgap? This is my current paper build.

2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Priest of Titania
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library

1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Meekstone
1 Progenitus
1 Choke
1 Worldspine Wurm
2 Thoughtseize

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I believe the standard go-to for a replacement Cradle is Crop Rotation. Drop Library #2 for it.

[PaulJordan]

I have this deck built in MTGO and I think it's absolutely amazing. I have a good amount of the deck built on paper based on what I own so if the list looks suboptimal its a WIP. However I cannot afford the 4th Gaea's Cradle for a while, is it fair to use a Priest of Titania as a stopgap? This is my current paper build.

...
3 Gaea's Cradle
...
1 Viridian Shaman

Crop Rotation is the typical proxy for cradles. And you should definitely get Reclamation Sage in there over the Shaman.

[Nuke is Good]

I believe the standard go-to for a replacement Cradle is Crop Rotation. Drop Library #2 for it.

Wow I feel dumb for not thinking of that thanks. In regards of having 2 Libraries is since I play Jund I run 2 of them and it feels amazing. But Elves does have better means of drawing so I guess running 1 works.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If it's a meta call, find room in your board for library #2. It's a good card against miracles also. Also, you might read this whole thread if elves is what you play. The information in this thread is impeccable.

[jamie7keller]

So i just got TROUNCED by loam....game one saw a turn one wasteland, turn two punishing fire and burnwillows.

game two was a turn one chalice of the void, backed by abrupt decays and dark confidant and punishing fire (and burnwillows and wasteland)

so did I get unlucky, muligan poorly, or is that a terrible terrible matchup?




Oh, and I took y'alls advice and got a fourth cradle. :)

[Echelon]

It happens. More often it tends to be a pretty good MU, as is pretty much everything that doesn't run blue.