[Primer] Elves!

[Lemnear]

Also, for those of you who haven't tried it yet, Sylvan Library is Necropotence in this deck. It's sweet in grindy matchups, and probably good in the mirror, which I am now 0-8 against in games.

This post pretty much explains WHY you are 0-8 in games in the mirror as it is NOT about slow grinding. The Necro comparison is hilarious

[ThePrevailer]

For the record, I have never brought library in for the mirror, I just think it would fine there. It's been my experience that mirror comes down to ripping each others hands apart, then staring at each other playing draw go until someone draws a sorcery. Why wouldn't you bring in a Library? It's a better draw than any elf is it not?

[Lemnear]

For the record, I have never brought library in for the mirror, I just think it would fine there. It's been my experience that mirror comes down to ripping each others hands apart, then staring at each other playing draw go until someone draws a sorcery. Why wouldn't you bring in a Library? It's a better draw than any elf is it not?

No, it's not. You wanna pay 4 life again and again for your "Necropotence" while your opponent draws a WRP, DRS, Visionary, Quirion, Symbiote and Co. to suddenly squeeze out 1-2 extra DRS activations between his turns, draws more cards with the Superfriends-combo, having more creatures to attack you or creates a wall of Wolfs?

[D@N]

After trying out wrp for the last 3-4 months in the main I'm not sure it's where we want to be anymore. Sure against some decks that you can untap with it then it's awesome but I more then often found myself with just a 5/5 that could make bodies. Plus just having a dude to champ against removal heavy jund or the like is impossible. I'd rather them remove a dork then have to invest so much and have to wait a turn. Also what's the standard list like these days still md ruric thar, and scooze?

Wanting a little more on this edric plan as getting repeatable card draw from him in the miracles m/u seems decent.

[Lemnear]

After trying out wrp for the last 3-4 months in the main I'm not sure it's where we want to be anymore. Sure against some decks that you can untap with it then it's awesome but I more then often found myself with just a 5/5 that could make bodies. Plus just having a dude to champ against removal heavy jund or the like is impossible. I'd rather them remove a dork then have to invest so much and have to wait a turn. Also what's the standard list like these days still md ruric thar, and scooze?

Wanting a little more on this edric plan as getting repeatable card draw from him in the miracles m/u seems decent.

Funny, as I picked WRP to battle those removal heavy decks like Miracles or Punishing Jund as you can easily outplay Punishing Fire for example due to it's excessive cost of 3 compared to your 1cc elves. I don't understand how you can say that the shortage of bodies against removal heavy decks is a reason to not run WRP but the same requirement of meat doesn't bother you in regards to Edric which is an easy victim to any existing removal, which Miracles has plenty of. The need to Splash a color just to see him plowed or bottomed by Terminus isn't too hot and he's plain bad against Aggro as well.

[ThePrevailer]

No, it's not. You wanna pay 4 life again and again for your "Necropotence" while your opponent draws a WRP, DRS, Visionary, Quirion, Symbiote and Co. to suddenly squeeze out 1-2 extra DRS activations between his turns, draws more cards with the Superfriends-combo, having more creatures to attack you or creates a wall of Wolfs?

Um. Packmaster gets boarded out in the mirror, and none of the other elves you listed really matter. Excpet Visionary, but that's only because he draws you to cards that do matter. Walls of wolves mean nothing to Craterhoof Behemoth, and obviously the Visionary engine is better than Library, that's not the point. The point is that Library is better than for example Heritage Druid when ALL that you care about is who can get a Behemoth into play first.

Re: Edric

I board him out against Jund, Maverick, Goblins, Patriot, and any matchup when I don't think I'll get the chance to connect with a moderate (3ish) attacking force. Against Miracles I actually like him (which is the whole reason I play him) because you get to draw a few cards, then Terminus puts him back in your library where you can GSZ him out again and draw a few more. Eventually he'll get plowed, but so will every creature and Edric does his part to help recover from Terminus quite nicely.

[Zombie]

a 5/5 that could make bodies.

Is what wins games. The deathtouchers and 5/5 blockers stall nearly any board, the wolves punch through nearly any board at a profit. The 5/5 contributes a significant clock against empty boards. The main threat itself - Packmaster - is really hard to kill with most spot removal especially if you keep her back. Gets you value after sweepers and you don't need not-sick dudes while powering one out T2/T3 like you'd do with Hoof. It makes GSZ a lot more threatening. It's kinda what Ruric does to combo, or Regal does to fair decks, except it needs less stuff on board to be scary than Regal.

[Dice_Box]

Pack Master has to be the cutest art for a "Him" I have seen in a long while.

[uncletiggy]

Im so glad to see packmaster as a thing now I suggested him and natural order as a logical progression for the deck on another site before craterhoof was printed and was laughed at. Its poetic justice to them being used. I havent taken elves to an open in a long time(since the legend rule change), I was wondering why glimpse #4 is better then natural order #4 in the main. Traditionally ive sided out some number of glimpses in most matchups is it reasonable to bring the fourth No md and free up a slot in the board for something like flusterstorm or swan song. I know it sounds sacrilegious but glimpse is not really what this deck primarily wants to be doing anymore its more counterbait/CA then a win condition anymore.

[ESG]

I havent taken elves to an open in a long time(since the legend rule change), I was wondering why glimpse #4 is better then natural order #4 in the main. Traditionally ive sided out some number of glimpses in most matchups is it reasonable to bring the fourth No md and free up a slot in the board for something like flusterstorm or swan song. I know it sounds sacrilegious but glimpse is not really what this deck primarily wants to be doing anymore its more counterbait/CA then a win condition anymore.

I would say it's because Glimpse is faster, double Glimpse generally allows you to draw your deck, and it requires fewer resources than Natural Order (you already need several dudes on the board in order for Natural Order to get a lethal Hoof). The best sideboarding comes down to anticipating your opponent's substitutions and either boarding to counteract those (anti-hate) or going in a different direction. I agree with you on Glimpse being lackluster in more matchups now due to Counterbalance, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Ethersworn Canonist. I've been playtesting a number of unorthodox sideboard plans but have been lukewarm on this deck for at least a month due to Miracles and combo decks seeing more play in my area.

[danyul]

@ ungletiggy

I agree.

The MD configuration is tuned to be able to best abuse the Glimpse while balancing the capacity to grind out a card advantage win or just Hoof them on the spot when NO shows up. It's true that NO will usually win once resolved, but the threat of Glimpse is still very real. And it is our only avenue for the delicious-yet-elusive Turn 2 kill. I would say that Game 1, we always want the option of going for Glimpse. But post board, they are often one of the easier things to cut.

Now that I think about it, the two cards (Glimpse/NO) exist in opposition to one another. Glimpse wants creatures in hand. NO wants creatures on the board. It's kinda beautiful when you get those draws that allow you to Glimpse and fill up the board only to follow up, that turn or the next, with the NO for lethal. If that is the ideal way to sequence those spells, then yeah, it makes sense to have a 4/3 split on them.

Also, it's usually fine to draw a Glimpse in multiples. But seeing more than one NO in the first few turns is usually a feel-bad. Unless you are against a combo deck or something, which is where the 4th SB NO comes in.

Having the Glimpses countered, as they often are, doesn't necessarily mean we should start cutting them. They are countered out of respect for their power. And there is always a nice little mind game you can play when you cast them. Also, they add to our 13 MD bombs (NO, Glimpse, GSZ, Hoof) that are often must-counters. As far as MD configurations go, I wouldn't want to lose that bomb dropping potential. And although the deck may primarily be a NO deck right now, most of our opponents still respect and fear the Glimpse. I often like seeing them countered. There is value in that flexibility.

TLDR - I can see an argument for the MD supporting 4 Glimpse/4 NO. But I don't think cutting Glimpses for the 4th NO is where we want to be.

[uncletiggy]

When I played I was on 4/4 and always perfered to see it countered as well. I dont think I'd play less then four of either md just curious if it had reached a point where trimming a glimpse was viable as it is arguably the weakest card left in the deck(requires mana on board cards in hand and preferably an engine in place), which is saying something for how far the deck has come in a year or two.

[D@N]

Funny, as I picked WRP to battle those removal heavy decks like Miracles or Punishing Jund as you can easily outplay Punishing Fire for example due to it's excessive cost of 3 compared to your 1cc elves. I don't understand how you can say that the shortage of bodies against removal heavy decks is a reason to not run WRP but the same requirement of meat doesn't bother you in regards to Edric which is an easy victim to any existing removal, which Miracles has plenty of. The need to Splash a color just to see him plowed or bottomed by Terminus isn't too hot and he's plain bad against Aggro as well.

The plan with edric isn't really against any removal heavy deck or something that can keep up with you it's more for miracles and recovering from wraths. You're right that being able to outplay a punishing fire and slamming wrp is good but I've always had the problem of "bolt ur dude, decay or hymn you, Lilliana sac" or land dark conf. T2 and never be able to keep up with the card advantage. Just having 3 to make a dude is sometimes a problem between removal and wastelands.

I don't know maybe I'm just that unlucky as I jumped away from this deck for 2 weeks to play reanimator and somehow managed to play 2 different people playing md extirpate in a 30+ person events. Like wtf???

[Careve]

I only need 3 Cradles to having a fully fleshed Elves deck. My question would be what do you guys think how likely or unlikely it is for Elves to become tier1.5 or even tier2 deck in a year or two? Another tribal deck Goblins was also a very competitive deck a while ago, but they are basically disappeared now. Can it realistically happen to Elves as well or are there some reasons that make it very unlikely for Elves?

I would hate to spend lots of money on Cradles and then see their prices crash due to Elves not being played anymore (and there would be no other deck playing Cradles).

[Dice_Box]

Kobold Storm plays then too.

The issue with Goblins is that aggressive decks just died with new cards printed. Goblins is not alone, Aggro Loam, Zoo, even to a limited point Fish have all just kind of died. Elves though has gained traction it is because the deck attacks on at lest three axis. It can be a Storm deck, a straight combo deck or beat down when necessary. These multiple avenues of attack make Elves far more resilient to change than Goblins where. I say that as a Goblin player too BTW.

But honestly, I don't think anyone can promise you that Elves won't hit on hard times. If you have of told someone in 09 that Maverick would be dead by 2013 I am not sure how they would have redacted, but I can say I did not see it coming. That said, Elves is resistant to change because the deck is so malubule. This deck and Painter are the two non blue decks I would bet on if I was not going to play blue and wanted a deck to last for a few years.

[Careve]

I definitely understand that no one can accurately predict what will happen in the next 2 years, but just want to hear people's thoughts on how resilient/flexible Elves deck can be if needed. I appreciate your mentioned points a lot!

[Zombie]

Kobold Storm plays then too.

The issue with Goblins is that aggressive decks just died with new cards printed. Goblins is not alone, Aggro Loam, Zoo, even to a limited point Fish have all just kind of died. Elves though has gained traction it is because the deck attacks on at lest three axis. It can be a Storm deck, a straight combo deck or beat down when necessary. These multiple avenues of attack make Elves far more resilient to change than Goblins where. I say that as a Goblin player too BTW.

But honestly, I don't think anyone can promise you that Elves won't hit on hard times. If you have of told someone in 09 that Maverick would be dead by 2013 I am not sure how they would have redacted, but I can say I did not see it coming. That said, Elves is resistant to change because the deck is so malubule. This deck and Painter are the two non blue decks I would bet on if I was not going to play blue and wanted a deck to last for a few years.

I'd add: It can be Storm.dec, Tinker.dec, Zoo.dec (small dudes, DRS as burn) and Shardless.dec. The slow, grindy CA driven gameplan is probably the strongest one the deck has IMO, and Elves is one of like three decks in the format capable of doing it.

[Julian23]

If you have of told someone in 09 that Maverick would be dead by 2013 I am not sure how they would have redacted.

In 2009 they would have asked you "Who's Maverick, and why is he dead?"

[apple713]

I only need 3 Cradles to having a fully fleshed Elves deck. My question would be what do you guys think how likely or unlikely it is for Elves to become tier1.5 or even tier2 deck in a year or two? Another tribal deck Goblins was also a very competitive deck a while ago, but they are basically disappeared now. Can it realistically happen to Elves as well or are there some reasons that make it very unlikely for Elves?

I would hate to spend lots of money on Cradles and then see their prices crash due to Elves not being played anymore (and there would be no other deck playing Cradles).

I don't play elves personally, yet. I have the deck just never threw it together. Even if elves die. cradles are on the reserve list and are likely to rise again...and again. I only have 5 cradles (2 of which are foil) and I'd like more. They haven't done much lately but they always could. outside of cradles the deck is fairly cheap.

[Lemnear]

Tbh, the reasons are even deeper burried within the cmc of those decks. Goblins are unable to cheat on mana-development unless they have Lackey unlike Elves which have GSZ->Arbor, DRS, Cradle or NO to do so and stay competitive with Delver/Terminus/S&T as the formats currents cornerstone-threats due to their power/mana-ratio. The slowness of Goblins and Vial was compensated with Wasteland and Rishadan Ports to slow your opponent down as well until you get the Ringleader engine going and overwhelm your opponent with it's cardadvantage. Plays like Turn 1 Delver or turn 2 S&T into Griselbrand turn the whole mana-denial plan of Goblins ad absurdum, as those cards alone (compare this to D&T) are no longer enough to gain a decent control over the pace of a game.

In short: Goblins are too slow without Lackey to get their 3cc and 4cc engine cards going before they are mauled by combo or quicker aggro (Delver). The Goblin Tribe would either need cheaper engine cards or more ways to cheat on their mana-development. If you ask me, the tools are there in Warren Instigator and a black Splash to bridge the gap Delver and combo decks opend in the last couple of year, but I'm not interrested in tuning Aggro decks for the metagame, which obviously no one cares enough about to test serious changes, other than taking 2006's Goblins as a scale for ranting in the B&R Thread of how unhealthy the metagame is