I have tried Extraction. From memory I posted a 5 paragraph rant that can be summed up by simply saying "Its a trap".
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
Originally Posted by Spam
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
My MD is pretty standard but my SB is this:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus.
Against Miracles, I usually SB in 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Choke, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Natural order, 1 Progenitus, 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Abrupt Decay. I SB out 4 Glimpse of Nature, 3 Nettle Sentinels, 3 Heritage Druids, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Craterhoof Behemoth.
I basically take out my entire glimpse package to play grindy.
There is a possibility that I missed triggers or didn't mulligan correctly as I am relatively new to the deck. Against BUG, the two games I lost, I never had enough creatures on board to actually miss a trigger. I think I will see about trying to shoehorn a Wilt Leaf in there. I didn't get a chance to play against Miracles this weekend, but look forward to trying out WRP against it. I just need lots of practice before next month's tourney. Hooray MODO.
As Legacy Champs draws nearer over here in Philadelphia, I'm going to start posting more frequently my test results, sideboard plans, and general matchup analysis. While probably borderline useless to the elf veterans, hopefully it can save a few of you some trouble.
Matchup analysis:
Elves vs Death and Taxes
Elves is highly favored preboard, highly favored to favored post board.
Current configuration:
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
Sideboard:
1 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Swan Song
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Natural Order
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Progenitus
How their deck works:
Death and taxes primarily will attempt to attack mana development in any matchup, but their game plan is quite ineffective here. D&T will look to set up port/waste/thalia to keep opponents from developing meaningful board states while chipping away life totals through smaller disruptive creatures backed either with mother of runes and/or equipment. Hands without vial often have to choose between spending resources to hinder the opponent or lay a threat.
We are a turn 3 deck that isn't going to fold because natural order costs 5 or because a creature gets swords'd.
Preboard Overview:
Between 5 mana dorks, 3 heritage, 2 birchlore and 4 GSZ for turn 1 arbor, we can develop our board faster than they can and a single cradle activation undoes turns of work on their end. The game usually ends turn 3 or 4 after glimpse or natural order resolve. Hands without either of these bombs might still be fine but you'll need symbiote + visionary or a naturally drawn Craterhoof since the 1/1 beatdown plan gets quickly outclassed on the ground. Reclamation sage does wonders in answering potential equipment situations, as well as Phyrexian revoker, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and to a lesser extent Aether Vial.
Aven mindcensor is the most backbreaking play they can make although fewer lists are running it. It turns off a primary win condition and flies to allow equipment to be useful. Mirran crusader blowouts are also a possibility.
As we are pretty favored here, we really want to focus on how we lose games and avoid those pitfalls. I'll cover my common losses later.
Cards they might bring in:
Rachet bomb
Ethersworn cannonist
Grafdigger's cage
Council's judgement
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Holy Light
Cataclysm
Boarding: -2 Nettle Sentinel, 2 Glimpse of Nature, 1 Craterhoof Behemoth (-1 heritage)|| + 3 Abrupt decay, 1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus, 1 null rod
Reasoning: Glimpse might be the worse of the engines in this matchup, partially because how strong Natural Order is and how we are adding dead draws mid-chain to compensate. Abrupt decay answers everything short of batterskull. I don't mind heritage druid in the matchup since I basically am only looking to produce 4 mana in the face of some number of ports/wastes. (It has been mentioned null rod might be a good addition that I've overlooked)
Postboard Overview:
They will have more hateful permanents but are still completely at the mercy of your draw step. Reclamation Sage along with abrupt decay or wirewood symbiote will remove whatever they have standing in your way. The onus is on them to draw the right effects at the right time while we do not have an answer handy.
Progenitus is the main gameplan, followed by glimpse chains (for value or unlikely combo) and the long Reclamation Sage grind. Some lists have 2 council's judgement in the 75 however, so don't be afraid instead to just go for a non-lethal hoof swing to drop them within deathrite range for the next turn.
How we win:
Generate board presence through their typically low disruption starts and end the game with the usual bomb. They have the option of disrupting us or pressuring us but cannot do both before the above happens.
How we lose:
- Turn 1 Deathrite/GSZ off a fetched bayou meets swords and wasteland. AVOID THIS, especially if we are on the draw
- Keeping a weak had that produces a lot of mana but nothing else and let them set up equipment.
- A greedy natural order gets mindcensor'd
- They present a lot of removal/disruption as we draw uncastable cards
- Their hate piece coincides with our drawn method of winning (Cage > Natural Order/GSZ, Spirit > Draw engines)
- All in on Progenitus meets their 2 of council's judgement
A special note:
Protection from green via Mother of runes or Mirran crusader and Jitte/Sword of fire and ice can be played around. Morph Birchlore ranger, unmorph him and bounce him with symbiote. Especially in a 2 birchlore list, there is little excuse for equipment to connect without a flyer being present. if you are getting beaten frequently by this, consider changing GSZ priorities or mulliganing durdling hands that give D&T time to set up.
Last edited by Tammit67; 08-27-2014 at 04:19 PM. Reason: Added cataclysm, ratchet bomb,null rod
Matt Bevenour in real life
The STP/Jund/Shardless points are definitely more salient than my Show & Tell point. Well put. Jund and Shardless haven't been showing up much in my area so I forgot those were actual decks!
Agree!Edit: the game needs more antagonists anyways
Against EsperBlade I will bring in at least 1 Null Rod since those builds usually play Engineered Explosives and sometimes even Academy Ruins. Against Deathblade, they can't afford to run Academy Ruins/EE so I usually leave Null Rod in the board. Against UWR Delver I wouldn't bring in Null Rod but I sometimes bring in Pithing Needle for Grim Lavamancer. That way we can save Decays for Jitte/Delver.
Your SB looks fine to me. I think your gameplan VS Sneak & Show matches up with most of ours. That's how I approach the matchup too. If they have Leyline of No Discard, well, that sucks. At least we have Rec Sage now to mitigate that a bit. But I think that SB tech has fallen out of favor for most SneakyShow pilots. If they have it though, we are kinda screwed. That's just how that matchup goes. Zombie may have a few choice colorful words to say about it!
Congrats on your finish! Sounds like a fun weekend.
This makes me sad. I just picked up 2 set foil Surgicals! Since I have them, I might as well jam them at my weekly events and see how they do.
As for Miracles, I've moved to 2 Null Rod/2 P.Needle. I just always want to see them and the deck is getting more and more popular. The first Needle names Top. The second Needle names Jace. Then their deck becomes a pile of junk. I feel like we have to lean very heavily on those artifacts to make our post-board matchups salvagable. It's kinda cute to watch them flounder about with a dead Top though.
I whole-heartedly approve of this (and agree with your analysis)! I'll add these to Julian's SB guide under the primer once I get some time away from work (if that's okay with you, of course).
Also, don't forget about Cataclysm. Around here most D&T pilots have 2x in the board. That card can wreck us as well.
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2
Surgical Extraction is better with discard, but it's still powerful in games where the Miracles player doesn't have a Sensei's Divining Top. In order to Terminus, the Miracles player either needs to topdeck it or play a Brainstorm to set it up. After the Brainstorm, you can pull the trigger and Extract Brainstorm to cause him to shuffle away Terminus. Alternatively, if you do get hit with a Terminus at some point, you can extract all three other copies. I don't think Extraction is necessarily better than something like Choke, but it's a real card.
Against Death and Taxes, I find that Sunlance is a more common sideboard card than Holy Light.
Interesting that you don't bring in Null Rod or Pithing Needle vs. D&T. I find them to be very useful in the matchup since even if you have Ranger/Arbor or Symbiote/Elf to stop Jitte, they can Revoker one of those to stop it. Postboard games often go longer because they can put a Canonist or Spirit into play to delay your draw/action. They also sometimes have stuff like Ratchet Bomb which Null Rod helps against. You can also Needle Wasteland and Port if those are giving you trouble.
What are your thoughts on not bringing them in?
So last night in testing i was up against something like this:
13 White sources
4 waste
4 port
4 vial
4 swords
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 SoFI
4 mother
4 thalia
4 revoker
3 spirit
3 serra avenger
3 mirran crusader
3 flickerwhisp
4 stoneforge
He went -4 thalia, -2 avenger, -1 SoFI || + 2 cage, 2 council's judgement, + 2 cannonist, +1 path of exile or something. He had cataclysm but decided he'd rather leave the rest of the main intact
I dunno how great cataclysm is against us. They need dude plus equipment for it to take over a game and if it serves effectively as a board wipe, I've probably been able to bounce lands/creatures back to my hand or end the game in some other means. I feel like with a draw engine I'm going to have the resources to reboot my side of the field before they can.
I've yet to have it actually cast against me though, so you are probably right.
EDIT:
Null rod versus D&T-
I've found I already have answers to equipment aplenty with my current sideboard. I can certainly see arguing -1 heritage +1 null rod though. My original thoughts were that null rod doesn't do a whole lot against many of the cards I fear. It hits...
Aether vial- Meh, I already have speed on them. If they can deploy two creatures turn 3 it isn't going to break open the match. I'd rather have the heritage.
Ratchet bomb- I've yet to be maimed by one honestly. Maybe 2 for 1 or 3 for 2 but they were always on my terms after I've already accrued a large enough advantage to replay things. If they want to destroy their moms/vials in exchange for 2 elves, I'm often ok with it thanks to glimpse and visionary. Especially Ratchet bomb and not EE, I got a turn to alter my plays and they frequently have to spend the turn casting it (a turn they aren't porting me)
Jitte- Their ground assault is usually useless, Air support takes time they don't have. In order for them to get jitte active, they probably need turn 1 cage into SFM while hitting land drops. Abrupt decay has been good enough in dealing with these hands.
Perhaps being able to answer all of these cards warrants its inclusion where not 1 of them is important (in my eyes). If you find bringing in needle/rod is effective, don't change just because I failed to see the value in it.
Last edited by Tammit67; 08-27-2014 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Null rod against D&T?
Matt Bevenour in real life
Thanks for your input, the UWR Delver matchup is the specific one I'm wondering about bringing in Null Rod. The only removal they would have for it is Council's Judgment post-board (assuming they don't bring in wear/tear as that would be stupid) which they probably can't afford wasting for fear of a Progenitus getting into play. And if it does hit play, unless they already have a creature equipped with Jitte/SoFI they have nothing scary in their deck. They're just not fast enough and don't have enough disruption and eventually we'll get off a Glimpse/NO they can't come back from. My thinking is that an early rod will get us the time needed to win, but it may be so bad as a topdeck after things have developed a bit that it isn't worth the risk. And with 3 Abrupt Decays, it simply may not be needed. But the only time I get to play really is at actual tournaments so I can't test it out over many matches. Just going to gather constructive feedback as much as I can.
If UWR Delver is your primary concern, then I would favor Needle over Null Rod since it gives you the flexibility to hit equipment as well as Lavamancer. Unless you mean in addition to Needles?
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2
I do think that one copy of pithing needle should come in vs D&T, but the first target that comes to my mind is MoR. Decay-proof hatebears were involved in all my defeats against D&T if i remember correctly. Plus needle will almost never be dead against D&T, they have something like 5/6 relevant targets.
Hey man: Nice to see you streaming again. Shame they hosed your sound. (I think they must be using some kind of software to detect the public performance of copyrighted songs and so your sound gets muted.) LoR
I play 1 needle in the board, so my strategy against UWR would be:
+3 Abupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Progenitus
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
-3 N. Sentinel
-2 H. Druid
-1 Glimpse
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Birchlore
This Is great... I look forward to reading these in the future... I play 20 lands in my deck but was thinking to cutting to 19. Have you had any issues with you mana pool at 19?
I'm also interested to see how people playing 19 lands feel about their mana bases. I'm considering sticking with 20 but siding one out for matches that go long such as miracles. Not sure how sound that theory is though as I haven't had a chance to test it.
None really but if you like 20, more power to you.
Matchup Analysis
Elves vs AnT/TES
Elves is highly unfavored preboard, unfavored (to even?) postboard
Current configuration
Same as previous.
How AnT/TES work: they are looking to cast 10+ spells in the same turn, sometimes backed by discard to clear the way. We don't have a meaningful way of interacting with them preboard outside of graveyard management and racing and unfortunately, we are a turn slower on average.
Preboard overview: TES is certainly a worse matchup than AnT. TES rarely cares about its graveyard and also is a little faster. Don't expect to get to turn 3 often against TES. You can identify TES byt eh rainbow manabase and lack of basics. Multiple chrome mox, paired with burning wish and rite of flame are also telling. If your opponent is named Bryant Cook, you might also assume TES.
AnT on the other hand can be slowed down (albeit slightly) with deathrite shaman and scavenging ooze if you run ooze. Natural order into Ruric Thar, the Unbowed or a hoof kill are the avenues of victory we are looking for. AnT has terrible Ad Nauseum flips despite it being the name of the damn deck and will attempt to either chain infernal tutors into tendrils of agony or past in flames into tendrils. If you have a chance outside of them bricking for 5 turns, it is going to be off the back of a quick combo or deathrite preventing threshold'd cabal ritual and past in flames.
Cabal ritual alone isn't enough to distinguish between the two storm variants anymore, but if you see 3+ cabal rituals and/or basics and/or grim tutor, it isn't TES.
Hide the splash you are playing. If you are splashing white they will certainly bring in bounce, same with red. Not fetching Tropical Island will hide possible swan songs. Mindbreak trap/thorn of amethyst/surgical extraction might already be on their mind during boarding, no need to give them a better clue.
Similarly to the Death and Taxes matchup, one side is pretty heavily favored. It is less about how tight elves is playing and more about how well the opponent is playing and with which decisions they follow through.
Cards they board:
Chain of Vapor
Grapeshot (Burning wish)
Void snare (Burning wish)
Slaughter pact
Abrupt Decay
Boarding:: -4 elvish visionary , 3 wirewood symbiote, 1 wren's run packmaster, 1 reclamation sage, 1 craterhoof behemoth, (1 Glimpse of Nature against AnT if I'm on the play) || + 1 Null rod, 2 thoughtseize, 3 cabal therapy, 2 swan song, 1 natural order, 1 Ruric Thar, (1 Scavenging ooze if I'm on the play)
Reasoning: If I'm going to win, it is going to be through speed, not some grinding gameplan. Go up to the full set of natural orders to help get Ruric Thar down. Hands without some form of disruption aren't keepable. Scavenging ooze is useful against the GY reliant AnT deck but often too slow if I can't power him out on the play. AnT also almost universally only runs a single copy of tendrils as the win condition, so removing it with deathrite would be game over. Remember Birchlore can give you blue mana and you don't always have to optimize your attack in order to bluff having one (But if it is going to give them an extra turn by doing so, probably not worth it). Surgical extraction is useful once again against AnT but not TES.
Note: Not everyone has this much stuff to bring in, but identifying what cards to take out is a matter of determining how the game is going to progress. "Faster games don't need Visionary, longer games aren't as reliant on heritage combo" is basically what I've been doing after looking over Julian's SB'ing from his victory over at the BoM(Link here).
Postboard Overview: Since Elves has been running some form of hateful permanent since Gaddock Teeg, some form of antihate is usually finding its way in for the storm pilot and it is probably chain of vapor. Leaving fetchlands uncracked is useful to hiding a blue splash, but be careful! Older TES lists ran silence, so if you try to fetch in response to a spell to swan song and get silence'd, you are screwed.
Mulligan aggressively and look to survive until turn 3. Postboard games are a lot about how much disruption you are packing and can present in a timely manner and hands that do not provide heavily in speed or disruption are suspect. Thankfully, the disruption is usually really effective at letting us chain into more disruption or a win condition.
I figure these first two are really cut and dry. Looking to move on to Delver variants which will probably generate far more talk.
Matt Bevenour in real life
How far do you mulligan to get discard/hate? If you suspect that a piece of hate will delay them by, say, 1-2 turns, do you expect that mulling to hate will delay you less than that? If I have a turn 3 kill hand, or a hand with a strong possibility of NO on turn 3, I generally won't mulligan the hand. Postboard I don't expect ANT/TES to try to go off blind, respecting Mindbreak/Surgical, and we're on the play. I'm curious as to your thoughts on post-board mulligans.
Who gives a fuck about Surgical and MBT? If you fear to go all-in against some SB 1-offs/2-offs, storm isn't for you. The Main problem you have is that the first discard Spell hits your NO or Glimpse and they get rid of your MBT/Surgical when it matters.
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MBT and Surgical certainly aren't great concerns for storm but sometimes other conditions force storm to play into them or a bad pilot doesn't consider them and you snatch a game. I don't recommend boarding exclusively storm hate like mindbreak trap but if I had extractions and was facing an AnT opponent, I'm sure i could find a card in the main that is less useful.
If storm has a turn 1 hand, I fully expect them to take it and it wouldn't be wrong.
Matt Bevenour in real life
20 Lands actually is pretty important against Delver match ups where you have to contend with tax counters like Daze and Spell Pierce along with Stifle and Wasteland. You also want enough fetch lands to have enough Deathrite Shaman food.
I am considering a second Reclamation Sage in the sideboard. There are lots of things it deals with and a second one is nice if the first one dies or you don't draw a Wirewood.
Also considering running a Worldspine Wurm sideboard for fair match ups that don't run Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile.
@Lefeux
Keep playing elves and practicing. You faced some pretty bad match ups. Infect and Storm are not in our favor. If Storm is popular you might want some Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard. Generally don't fetch non basics against wasteland decks until you got at least one forest and will get at least once use out of the non-basic. Wilt-Leaf Liege may be worth running if there is a large amount of decks running Hymm to Torach in your area. If you keep running into Toxic Deluge you might want Worldspine Worm sideboard to Natural Order for.
@MadRhetoric17
Congratulations on winning the IQ. I also like the second Birchlore since I run Ruric Thar main and it has helped me cast Swan Song. I really like the blue splash for Swan Song because having a counter rather then relying on only discard deals with spells they draw or brainstorm/ponder/sensei's top to get to. Swan Song counters everything you care about in Sneak and Show both Show and Tell/Sneak Attack as well as their counterspells. I ran 1 Null Rod/1 Needle for awhile and I would bring both in against Stoneforge decks. I went back to 2 Needle because Null Rod being a turn 2 play instead of turn 1 against Miracles is a huge deal and Pithing Needle hits things like planeswalkers and Wasteland.
UWR Delver I actually prefer Pithing Needle because you can also name Grim Lavamancer or Izzet Staticaster both of which are really bad news.
@ESG
Miracles is one of the tougher match ups. I been running a blue splash since Spell Pierce was in print and Swan Song was a straight up upgrade. Blue Splash is really good here being able to counter their Counterbalance or Terminus.
I literally board in most of my side board against miracles.
3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Swan Song, 2 Pithing Needle, Natural Order, Progenitus, 3-4 Thought Seize
Abrupt Decay is necessary to kill Counterbalance if resolved.
Pithing Needle is crucial for disabling Sensei's Diving Top. Pithing Needle is preferable then Null Rod in the Miracles match up because you can play it on turn 1 before they get a turn or right after they play their Top you don't want to wait till turn 2 when they can have Spell Pierce, Counterspell or even counterbalance in play. Your second Pithing Needle should name Jace to stop their card advantage engine.
Swan Song is key because it can counter their counterspells, terminus and counterbalance. Discard is less effective because they might be floating spells via Top and have Brainstorm
Thoughtseize takes their counters or mass removal.
Strongly considering a 2nd Reclamation Sage in the board. Not sure what to cut though.
@Darthobiwan
Let know how that goes with the 2nd Reclamation Sage. I might try that myself.
@Duker99
I don't like Surgical Extraction because you really need discard for it to be effective and they may brainstorm in response or float spells on top with Top.
@AznSeal
How has Sylvan Library been for you? Seems like it would be good in matches where the games go longer like Delver or Miracles. Also how you been liking Choke? Losset's Miracle build I think has Mystic Gate, 2 Plains, a Mountain and 2 Karakas that Choke doesn't lock down but it seems really good.
@Tammit67
I like what you are doing with listing match ups and board plans. I have done board plans for most match ups I play I will add more explanations to them as well. My board is simialr to yours as I run a blue splash for Swan Song but I run both Scavenging Ooze and Ruric Thar main deck a result of having several Burn, Dredge and Storm in my local meta. Our local Death and Taxes player runs 3 Aven Mindcensor main deck so have to be very careful about casting Green Sun's Zenith or Natural Order. Needle/Null Rod is pretty key against Death and Taxes to turn off their Vial so they have to play fair and cast their creatures so they aren't porting your land and it deals with Jitte which is bad news. I agree storm is a bad match up. Hopefully you can slow them down with discard or swan song to natural order for Ruric Thar is my plan in that match up but you are a turn slower then them usually and they have their own discard.
@Shopshopshop
I bring in 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Natural Order, 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Progenitus against Death and Taxes.
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