[Primer] Elves!

[shopshopshop]

The next time I play Elves at a weekly I'm going to test out some number/combination of Tasigur + Gurmag Angler for a beatdown plan against Delver decks. It will be fun if nothing else.

[Tormod]

Rationale for Tasigur:

*Easy to play around counterbalance
*Dodges Engineered plague on elves
*Dodges Perish
*Provides card advantage for xxgg as a poly ability.

So basically, tasigur is good because he's not an elf and dodges the cards opposents tend to bring in against elves.

Is it correct to play? I dunno, but I see the rationale for it

[Julian23]

I split the top3 of the Big Legacy Trial of Milano Eternal with 2 friends.

R1: 2-0 vs 4c Delver
R2: 2-1 vs Miracles
R3: 2-0 vs UWr MentorBlade
R4: 2-1 vs BUG Delver
R5: ID
R6: ID
Quarters: 2-1 vs 4c Punishing Maverick (he Slaughter Games me for NO, In untap into Behemoth :P)
Semis: It's clear that my friends and I will be #1-3 so we split and just play for the Byes. I lose 0-2 to TES.

Fun for tournament, Choke has been really insane for me this far. I kind of really want Tasigur but idk, I should rather add sth vs Storm because Flusterstorm is pretty terrible vs Storm (but stellar vs Show and Tell) which is much heavier represented.

[.Ix]

This must be a forum record. Tasigur went from instantly dismissed to actually ok in like 3 pages.

[iosmacman]

I have a lot of dredge in my meta manaless and mana . What would be the best sideboard options to help combat them?

[Lemnear]

This must be a forum record. Tasigur went from instantly dismissed to actually ok in like 3 pages.

Slow three pages. For me this is the simple Treasure Cruise effect of people squeezing the card into anything that doesn't use the graveyard otherwise. The joke is that Elves primary nemesis Miracles puts the Elves removed rarely to the graveyard anyways, leaving you with the already favorable midrange decks where Tasigur might shines. It's not that the card is particular good against Lands or Jund either.

[Julian23]

I placed 19th with a record of 6-2 at the Milano Eternal yesterday. Matchup were kinda unfortunately as I never got to use my Chokes, but that's the Price you pay for hating so hard on the UWr and Grixis decks.

R1: Jund, 2:1 Win
R2: Dragon Stompy, 2:0 Win
R3: Burn, 2:1 Win
R4: BUG Delver, 1:2 Loss
R5: SneakShow, 2:0 Win
R6: SneakShow, 1:2 Loss
R7: Infect, 2:1 Win
R8: Dredge, 2:1 Win including decking him in g1 :-)))

Might write some more on the matches once I get home as I'm typing this on my bell phone.

[Lemnear]

As much as I want to touch the Regal Force debate again, I will refrain.

Don't hold yourself back. The problem with the topic so far was that no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target. If you have scenarios, ideas or pure opinions in your head, feel free to write them down for share. I don't bite unless I read something really questionable like "More Hoofs are pointless, because no one plays Containment Priest/Grafdiggers Cage or non-creature-counters anyways" ;D

Happy sunday, everyone!

[comeback]

Julian I'm the elves player close to you in your round 5.

I didn't played a "sultai" list but I opted for a sort of "denial" with 2 Blood Moon & 1 Choke with the following side:
Choke
Blood Moon
Pithing Needle
Sylvan Library
Abrupt Decay
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Surgical Extraction

My MUs:
R1 SmallPox 2-0
R2 TinFins 0-2
R3 MUD 2-0
R4 Sneak Attack 0-2
R5 Sneak Attack 2-0 ---> game1 dice won t3 combo no fow game2 opponent mulligan to 5
R6 Miracles 1-1
R7 Bug Cascade 1-2 ---> game2 & game3 very unlucky with 4-5 lands drew in a row

My general comment is that in current meta I'm used to have 2-3 MU in a 6-7 round tournament in which we can win the first game only if we are lucky and in the second and third game we have to draw at least 2 sideboard cards in the first 3-4 turn, any thoughts?

[IMarques]

Slow three pages. For me this is the simple Treasure Cruise effect of people squeezing the card into anything that doesn't use the graveyard otherwise. The joke is that Elves primary nemesis Miracles puts the Elves removed rarely to the graveyard anyways, leaving you with the already favorable midrange decks where Tasigur might shines. It's not that the card is particular good against Lands or Jund either.

Agreed. I'm not sure how we "agreed" that the banana man is good, though. In general, I'm open to new cards and ideas if they add something to the deck. As I have not played with or against Tasigur, I figured I would ask. That being said, if its not helping in Miracles or fast combo, then I'm not so interested. I didn't think it would be helpful, but I figured I might be missing something.

Don't hold yourself back. The problem with the topic so far was that no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target. If you have scenarios, ideas or pure opinions in your head, feel free to write them down for share. I don't bite unless I read something really questionable like "More Hoofs are pointless, because no one plays Containment Priest/Grafdiggers Cage or non-creature-counters anyways" ;D

Happy sunday, everyone!

Heh, you and I agreed on this one. The tl;dr was: Thou shalt not durdle! 'Ware the danger of cute things!

It amazes me that people want to salt their organic combo decks with durdely additives.

[Echelon]

It amazes me that people want to salt their organic combo decks with durdely additives.

Simple. Durdling is awesome!

[dte]

Don't hold yourself back. The problem with the topic so far was that no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target. If you have scenarios, ideas or pure opinions in your head, feel free to write them down for share. I don't bite unless I read something really questionable like "More Hoofs are pointless, because no one plays Containment Priest/Grafdiggers Cage or non-creature-counters anyways" ;D

Happy sunday, everyone!

So as I play the MD split of 1 hoof/1 Regal/ 1 Ruric/1WRP (no target in SB, I do not see that many MUs in which these are overclassed enough by proge, wurm to make them worthwile), I will try to defent the slot of Regal here over the 2nd hoof slot.

As a NO target, Hoof is almost always way better than Regal and is by far the primary target as, as pointed out by everyone, it wins the game.
The cases you have both hoof and NO in hand are clearly the ones where 2 hoof > split. Nevertheless, NO in Regal in these situation is very close to a win vs most non-combo decks. Vs storm you have Ruric. Vs S&T/elves, you fetch Regal, hoping to draw enough gas to cast hoof, but you wish you had 2 hoofs.

As a GSZ target or as a natural draw, however, it happens quite often that either you cannot reach the 9 manas for hoof but only 8, or that you should tap all your non-sick creatures to heritage to generate the mana. In both cases, having the hoof/Regal split is stellar. Usually what you draw there is enough to win in the following turn.

[Echelon]

I fear you're not quite making the case you think you are.

[Shagstaman]

that is a lot of fatties md...are you cutting lands? elves? I don't hate the toolbox feel, but I do hate diluting the core of the deck even if it's only by 2 cards.

core elf mens like q.ranger, drs, nettle, wws, and visionary can't go below 4. Normally I could see shaving a NO, but since you have all those 1-of fatties that seems terrible.. shaving on glimpse sounds blasphemous but I'd do that before anything else if you absolutely sold yourself on this package.

to reiterate: I don't hate the idea, the innovation... but the core of the deck is basically perfect and the only things that should change week to week are rurc/wrp main or not and sb cards.

[dte]

I do not cut any of the wirewood/visionary/GSZ/Glimpse/NO/DRS/Quirion, but I have 3 nettle / 3 heritage.
In fact as Regal is over the 2nd hoof, it is not different to some of Julian's list featuring Ruric + WRP.

It is not really an innovation, what I tried to discuss is just the choice between 2 hoofs or Regal + hoof.
I understand when 2 hoofs are better, as I kept track of the games when I lost because of the split, mainly because of a natural draw of my lone hoof which get discarded/countered.

But I cannot agree with "no one could present reasons or situations in which Ruric/Progenitus/Hoof/WRP were not miles better either as a natrual draw or as a GSZ-/NO-Target."

Regal is better than hoof as a natural draw/GSZ target when you do not reach enough mana for hoof or it requires you to tap all your elves. And even if we can generate ridiculous amount of mana from time to time, the difference between 7 and 8 (natural draw) or 8 and 9 (GSZ) is nothing to laugh at;
Still speaking in terms of natural draw / GSZ, we can discard progenitus as an option;
vs most decks, Regal > WRP/Ruric if you have the ability to cast it. I still GSZ into WRP more often than for regal against non-StP decks (easier to cast) and NO > Ruric early more often than NO > Regal.

[jakriner]

Hey all, I am just recently returning to Legacy and back to Elves. Last I played a Competitive Legacy event was more than two years ago and I was running Combo Elves without NO. Emrakul/Ezuri, Renegade leader as win cons. I am finishing putting together the deck and attended Eternal Extravaganza 2 in Central Pennsylvania. I ended up 6-3 for the event, finishing 60th of 318 players. My losses were to Turbo Dark Depths(not sure what the real deck is. Isnt lands), Storm(TES), Dredge. All of these games felt very close and had them dead if I made it to next turn. Does anyone have any recommendations on strategy vs. these matchups.

I was running the following list:

Creature (28)
2x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Heritage Druid
3x Nettle Sentinel
4x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Land (20)
2x Bayou
2x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
4x Gaea's Cradle
1x Pendelhaven
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (12)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Null Rod
2x Pithing Needle
1x Progenitus
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Wren's Run Packmaster

[MD.Ghost]

that is a lot of fatties md...are you cutting lands? elves? I don't hate the toolbox feel, but I do hate diluting the core of the deck even if it's only by 2 cards.

core elf mens like q.ranger, drs, nettle, wws, and visionary can't go below 4. Normally I could see shaving a NO, but since you have all those 1-of fatties that seems terrible.. shaving on glimpse sounds blasphemous but I'd do that before anything else if you absolutely sold yourself on this package.

to reiterate: I don't hate the idea, the innovation... but the core of the deck is basically perfect and the only things that should change week to week are rurc/wrp main or not and sb cards.

I can totally see a tutorbox without falling back. Two big ones seems common (most of the time 2nd hoof), so the question seems to be: Is it right to max out the combo percentage and turn a blind eye to some corner cases we all know, where we get paired against uncommon matchups (and the current meta feels divers enough) or our opponents are prepared enough against elves and dispose of the right spell mix to fight back even game one?

I still feel comfortable enough with my build and tournament results:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15869&iddeck=118258
Including a full tutorbox with 1 Hoof, 1 Ruric, 1 Ooze, 1 Sage and 1 WRP at Main!

Even Julian test enough stuff here and there (but his main seems set in stone for now) and i like his uncommon BUG-Side. In quite a spell Elves are a popular deck and you shouldn't netdeck too fast. For me it seems right to use some of the 75 cards to gain a surprise effect. From Ruric Main, some Counters or even Choke and rare Blood Moons at Side - we can use some nasty stuff to gain advantages to cover some uncommon edges.

[Tammit67]

Hey all, I am just recently returning to Legacy and back to Elves. Last I played a Competitive Legacy event was more than two years ago and I was running Combo Elves without NO. Emrakul/Ezuri, Renegade leader as win cons. I am finishing putting together the deck and attended Eternal Extravaganza 2 in Central Pennsylvania. I ended up 6-3 for the event, finishing 60th of 318 players. My losses were to Turbo Dark Depths(not sure what the real deck is. Isnt lands), Storm(TES), Dredge. All of these games felt very close and had them dead if I made it to next turn. Does anyone have any recommendations on strategy vs. these matchups.

There often isn't much you can do, although I haven't had issues with depths decks myself. Consistently beating dredge/tes post board would require a retooling of the board and leave you disadvantaged in more standard matchups.

Congrats on top 64

[Julian23]

Just checking in for a small post, I really liked Flusterstorm over Discard at the Milan Eternal. Discard is better vs Storm while Flusterstorm is better vs SneakShow, even though it has issues with Sneak Attack (which I accounted for by playing 2-3 Pithing Needles). The big plus for Flusterstorm to me was the added utility vs decks like Infect (where it stole a match) and Burn.

I've never been a fan of Swan Song but I also never really liked the discard. Sticking with Flusterstorm for now, seeing how OmniTell is the dominant combo deck on MODO with stronger showings of (what I consider to be an inferior deck=>) Sneak Attack over Storm in paper as well; at least where I play.

[Lans89]

Just checking in for a small post, I really liked Flusterstorm over Discard at the Milan Eternal. Discard is better vs Storm while Flusterstorm is better vs SneakShow, even though it has issues with Sneak Attack (which I accounted for by playing 2-3 Pithing Needles). The big plus for Flusterstorm to me was the added utility vs decks like Infect (where it stole a match) and Burn.

I've never been a fan of Swan Song but I also never really liked the discard. Sticking with Flusterstorm for now, seeing how OmniTell is the dominant combo deck on MODO with stronger showings of (what I consider to be an inferior deck=>) Sneak Attack over Storm in paper as well; at least where I play.

Do you still play all the Chokes side? Or is that just for the online meta? I havn't seen any decklists from the event. When playing counters and adding a Tropical to the maindeck (I guess), do you still run Pendelhaven? I still play discard, but don't like it a lot either.. especially Cabal Therapy... When you miss the first, but also saccing a creature isn't always the right thing to do =( We need those little green men!

You're absolutely right that Omnitell is very popular right now! I played it for a couple of tournaments, but Elves is strong too and more importantly: a lot more fun to play :D! Even when you loose..

PS: Did you receive my private message :)?