[Primer] Elves!

[Julian23]

You know the drill...

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! + Mario Kart 8 in-between rounds.

Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian

[Tammit67]

You know the drill...

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with #Elves! + Mario Kart 8 in-between rounds.

Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian

I occasionally check the VODs to see your list.

I don't know of anyone else running choke. Where do you want it and how effective has it been? I assume miracles is the reason?

[Lemnear]

I occasionally check the VODs to see your list.

I don't know of anyone else running choke. Where do you want it and how effective has it been? I assume miracles is the reason?

It's pointless against Miracles, Matt. Too many Basics paired with Wear/Tear to get rid of Needle/Choke/NullRod to make it effective. It's more of a card against UWR/BUG and their greedy manabases.

[Julian23]

I occasionally check the VODs to see your list.

I don't know of anyone else running choke. Where do you want it and how effective has it been? I assume miracles is the reason?

You can always check my list on http://itsJulian.com.

These days I side in Choke in about 80% of my matches because playing against something that is not UW(r) of some sorts (Delver, Stoneblade, Gold Digger, Miracles) is actually pretty rare. It's great against almost all of the aggressive decks because especially UR has no out to it and only plays 4 FoW which are already pretty busy with NO. Once you get Choke, all you need to worry about is what's on board, which is btw why I think T1 Delver is the best play against Elves in all of Legacy. Against Miracles its decent. Philipp did a good job educating people on bringing in all their Wear/Tear and Council's Judgement vs Elves these days so you get less value out of it but it's still good enough to sometimes steal games. Just don't overvalue it; I've lost my fair share of games against Miracles players that never even bothered to remove it and just went ahead and won g2 + g3 right *through* it. However, you still definitely bring it in as it's a threat they have to respect a lot.

[Tammit67]

It's pointless against Miracles, Matt. Too many Basics paired with Wear/Tear to get rid of Needle/Choke/NullRod to make it effective. It's more of a card against UWR/BUG and their greedy manabases.

I don't think people in my area are bringing in wear//tear against elves since elves lists aren't running infinite artifacts/enchantments against them. I know Schonegger (probably misspelled) was advocating a second wear//tear but the US isn't at that level of meta-gaming for the matchup.

Thanks for the insight, I wasn't super sold on it but maybe it is that good against UWR.

EDIT: You are saying it is useless, but I'm seeing Julian boarding it in today

[Lemnear]

I don't think people in my area are bringing in wear//tear against elves since elves lists aren't running infinite artifacts/enchantments against them. I know Schonegger (probably misspelled) was advocating a second wear//tear but the US isn't at that level of meta-gaming for the matchup.

Thanks for the insight, I wasn't super sold on it but maybe it is that good against UWR.

EDIT: You are saying it is useless, but I'm seeing Julian boarding it in today

I'm sure that says more about Julians impression of his opponent than about the capacity of Miracles as a deck if build and piloted correctly ;)

[Julian23]

Streaming the Daily Event with Elves.

Tune in for our round1 against #BradNelson on Sneak Attack over at twitch.tv/itsJulian

[Tammit67]

You can always check my list on http://itsJulian.com.

These days I side in Choke in about 80% of my matches because playing against something that is not UW(r) of some sorts (Delver, Stoneblade, Gold Digger, Miracles) is actually pretty rare. It's great against almost all of the aggressive decks because especially UR has no out to it and only plays 4 FoW which are already pretty busy with NO. Once you get Choke, all you need to worry about is what's on board, which is btw why I think T1 Delver is the best play against Elves in all of Legacy. Against Miracles its decent. Philipp did a good job educating people on bringing in all their Wear/Tear and Council's Judgement vs Elves these days so you get less value out of it but it's still good enough to sometimes steal games. Just don't overvalue it; I've lost my fair share of games against Miracles players that never even bothered to remove it and just went ahead and won g2 + g3 right *through* it. However, you still definitely bring it in as it's a threat they have to respect a lot.

Thanks for the response.

I noticed you were siding out GSZ against miracles? Perhaps I wasn't listening closely enough during your game (and the VODs are heavily muted :( ). Thoughts behind this decision?

Surgical extraction any good for you?

[jamie7keller]

So I have been hearing about more and more decks running chalice of the void, and more of them running it main as well (maybe not a lot, but more then had been). Stupid UR delver making chalice good.....

I have won through a turn one chalice on 1, but it is hard and requires some doing. Has anyone else seen this? Is this a reason to mainboard Abrupt Decay(s) or Reclamation Sage, or a reason to run (more) Krosan Grips? For the time being I have sage main-board, one AD main, and have gone to three sideboard AD.

[Lemnear]

So I have been hearing about more and more decks running chalice of the void, and more of them running it main as well (maybe not a lot, but more then had been). Stupid UR delver making chalice good.....

I have won through a turn one chalice on 1, but it is hard and requires some doing. Has anyone else seen this? Is this a reason to mainboard Abrupt Decay(s) or Reclamation Sage, or a reason to run (more) Krosan Grips? For the time being I have sage main-board, one AD main, and have gone to three sideboard AD.

You have 4 GSZ, 4 NO, 1 Sage and 4 Visionaries to draw into the Sage. I don't see a problem in general. MB Decay is iffy :/

P.S. No Chalice-Rap planned ... lol

[jamie7keller]

You have 4 GSZ, 4 NO, 1 Sage and 4 Visionaries to draw into the Sage. I don't see a problem in general. MB Decay is iffy :/

P.S. No Chalice-Rap planned ... lol

So is sage main board the common line now? I have been AWOL for the last month or two because of work and family stuff. I may be missing something, but this still seems like a problem to me even with that. getting to four mana for a tutor with all your 1 drops stuck in hand is not a guaranty, especially if they get down turn one chalice on the play.

And now I want a chalice rap! You tease me with a thing I didn't even know I wanted!

[Lemnear]

So is sage main board the common line now? I have been AWOL for the last month or two because of work and family stuff. I may be missing something, but this still seems like a problem to me even with that. getting to four mana for a tutor with all your 1 drops stuck in hand is not a guaranty, especially if they get down turn one chalice on the play.

And now I want a chalice rap! You tease me with a thing I didn't even know I wanted!

Yeah, Sage main was pretty common before UR Delver drew the focus from Blade and I'm sure it's the very first thing to pick up again if Chalice & Co. appear.

I dunno if that rap would be THAT different from the one made for the D&T matchup.

[jamie7keller]

Yeah, Sage main was pretty common before UR Delver drew the focus from Blade and I'm sure it's the very first thing to pick up again if Chalice & Co. appear.

I dunno if that rap would be THAT different from the one made for the D&T matchup.

Thanks. I'm not sure whether I was bringing in sage before the meta shift made it a good idea or whether I was a visionary leading the pack....I'm gonna choose to think in my own private thoughts it was the second.

Related question: Has the main-board AD been discussed in some of the back posts? I get the value of streamlining the deck, but I can't think of a time I drew AD and didn't have an excellent target for it. I'm sure in some of those situations a dude would have been just as good, but in some AD was my only out. There is also the marginal benefit that no one expects it, though that is gravy, not a reason to do it. (No one would expect Spectral Bears, but I won't be running them.)

[AznSeal]

Thanks. I'm not sure whether I was bringing in sage before the meta shift made it a good idea or whether I was a visionary leading the pack....I'm gonna choose to think in my own private thoughts it was the second.

Related question: Has the main-board AD been discussed in some of the back posts? I get the value of streamlining the deck, but I can't think of a time I drew AD and didn't have an excellent target for it. I'm sure in some of those situations a dude would have been just as good, but in some AD was my only out. There is also the marginal benefit that no one expects it, though that is gravy, not a reason to do it. (No one would expect Spectral Bears, but I won't be running them.)

AD might be useful in like 1/10 cases but in the other 9/10, i'd rather draw a dude and just win.

[jamie7keller]

AD might be useful in like 1/10 cases but in the other 9/10, i'd rather draw a dude and just win.

Do you often find it dead in hand, or with only marginally valuable targets? It may just be the games I play, but with a sample size of just me, it's more like 5/10 game saving, 3/10 as good as a random dude, 2/10 worse then a random dude.

[Lemnear]

Do you often find it dead in hand, or with only marginally valuable targets? It may just be the games I play, but with a sample size of just me, it's more like 5/10 game saving, 3/10 as good as a random dude, 2/10 worse then a random dude.

A game-saving one-off you cannot tutor for?

[jamie7keller]

A game-saving one-off you cannot tutor for?

Maybe game saving is over stating it, but hitting an opponents deathrite or chalice or phyrexian revoker or jitte or stone forge....even delver....seems worth a card to me. It's not always better then a dude, which is why I'm not running more than one main. With the alternatives being none main or more then one main, one feels right. I wish I took better testing notes to actually be able to back up that feeling.

I was looking at how many times I sided in some or all the abrupt decays and it was a high number. It's obviously not for every matchup so all four main seems foolish, so I split the difference at 1/3.

Do you really find it dead in hand often? I guess if you only side it when it is awesome you would never see it underperform. But even in the match ups where I side it out game 2, it rarely seems dead game 1.

[Lemnear]

Maybe game saving is over stating it, but hitting an opponents deathrite or chalice or phyrexian revoker or jitte or stone forge....even delver....seems worth a card to me. It's not always better then a dude, which is why I'm not running more than one main. With the alternatives being none main or more then one main, one feels right. I wish I took better testing notes to actually be able to back up that feeling.

I was looking at how many times I sided in some or all the abrupt decays and it was a high number. It's obviously not for every matchup so all four main seems foolish, so I split the difference at 1/3.

Do you really find it dead in hand often? I guess if you only side it when it is awesome you would never see it underperform. But even in the match ups where I side it out game 2, it rarely seems dead game 1.

Decaying DRS seems like a waste and Sage can take care of Revoker, Vial, Jitte and SFM as well in addition to be a Tutor target, cardadvantage, repeatable and coming with a body. That's what I'm talking about.

It's not a question of "being dead", it's one of "wouldn't a different card be better in terms of advancing your gameplan". It also adds nothing to unfavorable matchups but only against decks you can have a fair game against anyways (UR Delver aside)

[jamie7keller]

You are right that most of the things I want to target are things sage takes care of, and I do have 5-9 sages (depending on whether you count NO as a reliable sage tutor, I'm not sure we should as some of the targets lock us out of having enough guys on the field to sac one for sage). In many cases, an AD is a 6th (or 10th) removal card, and one that is only two mana. Without tutor it is "just" an answer card. But two mana and uncounterable is nice. Remember that your tutors for sage cost 4, and some of the things I want to hit make it hard to get to four mana (like the turn one chalice).

You sound certain enough, and I know you know your stuff, so I'm probably wrong here, but after settling on a list of 75, picking the 60 vs the 15 comes down mainly to what decks you expect to play. If I'm siding in AD against lots and lots of decks, it seems wise to just main board it.

Maybe that just means that I am over side boarding or that my meta is weird.


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[danyul]

IRT Surgical Extraction: I had two in my SB for the longest time but they didn't come in very often. And when they did, they were somewhat lackluster. But I don't play vs Combo/Reanimator much in my meta so take that input with a grain of salt. It felt weird to bring them in against fair decks but perhaps I misunderstood their purpose.

This may sound flippant and disrespectful to the power of Chalice, but I've beaten T1 Chalice @1 more often than I've lost to it. Between GSZ, Elvish Visionary, MD Rec Sage, and Natural Order (don't forget Morphed Birchlore Rangers!), I've usually been able to play around Chalices entirely. Or blow them up after a couple turns of making natural land drops.

I agree with Lemnear about MD Decay. I'm not a fan of it. This deck wants to get it's gameplan up and running before we wanna fiddle with reactive cards. Concessions have been made for Rec Sage and often Scooze because they are just that good + are also things that can kill your opponent.

Your testing/anecdotal results may be skewed by the fact that Decay is one of those spells that almost always has a target, so having one MD may never "feel" as bad as it actually is. But as others have said, I think just drawing a dude is better in most Game 1 scenarios. I also side in Decay against a bunch of decks, and quite often at that, but I would still be hesitant to run one MD.

HOWEVER, if your results are positive with your changes, then fuck what we say! You just do whatever wins you games. Then come back and tell us stories of your victories. If you really face that many Chalice decks in your area, then shiet. Maybe MD Decay isn't so bad. I wouldn't run it though.