Im this premium article Sam Black speaks about his mistake in the last open and also has some brews about changin elves at the end.
Its premium so im prety sure I would get a problem If I even quote something.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article..._Scandal-.html
I got to play an elves mirror with Mr. Black and he was obviously very green to playing the deck...missed nettle sentinel triggers, almost missed a craterhoof trigger, etc... he ran better than I did though and got me with full glimpse combo in 2 games. I seriously doubt he was trying to cheat as some people suggested, I think he was just nervous piloting a new deck-- and I can pretty confidently say that attacking with a summoning sick dude on a glimpse turn is something we've all done once or twice (not on purpose...it's easy to lose track of which of your 23 dudes have sickness)
Anywho, about this thread being stale...I agree, but I mean really without getting super drastic with the changes there's not a good direction to go with the deck. I mean we could experiment with a summoners pact build for speed, but I think that's not the best call due to miracles gaining popularity. a blue variant also warrants discussion-- I've been thinking a LOT about gitaxian probe in the main if I can find room...
Wasn't Matt Nass playing with Probe maindeck for a while?
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I think I remember seeing a few lists with it... I was just thinking that the whole "56 card deck" thing plus knowing if the coast is clear to combo off would be nice in game 1's... It would also make our combo matchup better since it would make our therapies better. an opening hand with probe and therapy vs combo seems like the stones with even a small amount of pressure.
The hard part would be what to cut...I was leaning toward 2-3 lands plus some of the maindeck 1-ofs.. so like -1 forest, -1 fetch, -1 viridian, -1 heritage.... or even -2 heritage to keep a land or shaman.
seems solid in my mind, but who the hell knows if it's any good in practice.
I can get behind -1 Shaman
but -2 lands?
Maybe -1 Fetch.
Build and try?
ill sleeve it up later and goldfish a bit vs imaginary delver players. =)
Mind writing the number/hands down?
Thanks!
If you test this i suggest cutting within nettle/heritage
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Im playing with 3 probes. -1 glimps, one nettle and one heritage druid. Really really loves it, knowing when not to play around daze and spellpierce is wonderfull or knowing if a combodeck can go off...
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I still think we can round out the sideboarding plan for decks not yet in Julian's recommended suite. There are still at least fifteen decks it's worth practicing against, debating about, and recommending sideboards for. This should give us some ample fodder for discussion until we start seeing some cards that might recharge the deck from WotC.
Funnily enough large corporations get their best business ideas from brainstorming sessions that work exactly like that. Suggest a number of seemingly absurd ideas out of the blue, then evaluate them thoroughly.
We could start one here - starting from today, we take the time to gather ideas for new approaches or small improvements to the deck and after a week or so, start evaluating them one by one.
I'll go first.
Instead of going for a fast NO-build of Elves, build a slower engine-based aggro-version.
Ie. a number of land, mana dorks and Quirion Rangers and 4 Oracle of Muldaya, 4 Blood Shaman & the Best Friend-team. Then pile on with a combination of Elvish Archdruids, Champions and other lords. Still run GSZ, but no longer run NO/Glimpse of Nature. Maybe run a couple of Concordant Crossroads.
Slows down the deck considerably but makes it more resillient against counters and spotremoval and gives you more ways to rebuild after your board has been swept.
Alright, next person! Evaluation starts next thursday.
I like the idea, but Im not too sure about the Oracle.
In a build that run 20 lands (MAX!) it's a bit clumsy
It becomes better when paired with Quirion Ranger and helps you make the decision to either tap Blood Shaman (also ensures you always pick the right creature type with the Shaman) or bounce an Elvish Visionary.
But the point of this proces is to wait with evaluating until we've gathered some more ideas so try to refrain from doing so for a bit. So, who's next? And feel free to expand upon the ideas of others, that's what makes these sessions useful.
The fact that we are playing a creature based combo almost limit our options.
I was thinking at one point cutting all the fetches and trying with Elvish Pionner...
The Lemnear on my left shoulder told me to do it...
The ItsJulian on my right shoulder told me it's a bad idea...
The Danyul behind me told me "Get at em bro"
if you're looking to play aggro elves you should probably understand how decks like goblins/death and taxes work. Elves could probably not run aether vial because they generate a lot of mana by themselves, but things like wasteland, rishadan port, cavern of souls should be staple.
Bloodline shaman seems fine for card advantage, but given that we already have symbiote/visionary i'd play Sylvan Messenger instead of bloodline shaman to go bonkers with symbiote.
The problem is that aggro elves probably fails to reach the power level of goblins/death and taxes, they just have more efficient creatures for this path and better removal spells.
Edit: while i was writing this i realized how this change would improve our miracle matchup. Goblins have a very good miracle matchup because they don't need to commit to the board too much to apply pressure, and they are very resilient to countermagic. If only was possible to sideboard into an aggro elves list after game 1, that would give us an advantage over miracles.... but the best cards against them would be aether vial, sylvan messenger and cavern of souls, none of wich we can run main deck in the combo shell.
I don't get the logic behind slowing down a deck that already beats every fair deck aside from miracles. Even miracles is beatable with a decent sideboard plan (2-0 at SCGLA). If anything, I think finding ways to improve the combo match-up is the way to go. Scavenging ooze may deserve consideration as a MD option going forward. The deck became a tier 1 deck almost a year ago with the addition of DRS, NO->hoof, and AD. DRS is only marginally slower than llanowar but I doubt anyone is going to argue its inclusion. Meanwhile, NO->hoof is the primary reason why we can race combo now. Post-board games are easier as we delay the opponent long enough to NO for lethal out of nowhere.
I have a aggro elves build I use in social games. It has a major issues early game to removal. I know people do not like that reason used, but it is true. A good bolt and you lose a good amount of your speed. The wind in your sails is far too dependent on the right combination of cards because your not after Lords, your after the right Lords for the situations at hand. It is like Fish but without Permission, its not a great plan. If you can build without someone stopping you, your a gold.
Goblins deals well with Miracles not because its an aggro plan, but because its a re-loadable gun. The main weapon against Goblins only moves them to the bottom of the library. A matron into a Ringleader and your off again at full speed. Aggro elves does not have this, no combo of Wasteland and Port on top of some fast mana will stop the pain that will come from a wipe. The deck might have the NO out, but it does not have the toolbox and draw of Goblins. Also Goblins is all but dead, so comparing a dead deck to a watered down Elf deck does not seam smart.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I did some goldfishing with the probes in and it seemed wonky...I think it definitely is a fine plan vs combo and slower fair decks, but vs something like delver the life loss is very relevant. I'll mess with it some more.
I know I've mentioned this before in the thread and got shot down, but what about a straight up combo version that forgoes the long game in favor of pure speed... pacts, etc with the focus being on glimpse or regal force to draw cards. I'd suggest some priest of titania or archdruid in a version like this, as well as ezuri as a potential win con. Something to chew on, but itd need to be looked at with fresh eyes...none of thise "but NO elves is obv better" biz
A more tuned, all-in version would have things like Summoner's Pact, extra Birchlores, not stuff like Priest of Titania/Archdruid.
I used to sideboard 1-2 Summoner's Pacts to bring in against opposing combo decks so as to speed up my deck against them in g2/3.
I know why goblins do well against miracles, but you should realize that also elves have access to the tools to be a reloadable gun. Goblin Ringleader=Sylvan Messenger. Then we have symbiote that can bounce a sylvan messenger or elvish visionary, or bloodline shaman if you like it.
I also know that a version of elves similar to the one i am describing would be totally inferior to goblins ( we have no lackey, no matron, no removal), but i'm totally convinced that would do better against miracles than the current combo elves deck. However it is pointless to change our deck radically just to improve one matchup, and i was explaining my point of view just because people in the previous page were talking about coming up with new ideas.
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