[Primer] Elves!

[Raizen884]

I've just started with the deck and I've been copying Julians most recent list but I really have no idea how to sideboard, it seems like we really don't want to take out most of our cards. Is there a sideboard guide somewhere? Or could someone explain to me what cards come out in what matchups? I've got enough format knowledge to know what I want to come in but not to know what comes out.

You can enter the discord group, it has been posted up some messages.

Anyway, I think you need to know what is your focus on the matchup and then it becomes much easier to know what to take out. If you think the match is going longer like most Delver variants/4c Control/Stoneblade then you take out the explosive cards in favor of grindier cards, so you leave in Nissa, full set of wirewood/visionary and take out 1-2 Heritage, 1-2 Nettle, 1 Quirion, NO 0-2(depending on how grindy you think the match will be). If you think you need to race or stablish really fast on the game like Storm/SnS, then you take out Wirewood/Visionaries, sometimes Quirion or Glimpse of Nature on some matchups.

The thing is, elves is actually one of the combo decks that is easier to know what to side out, because the deck attacks from so many different angles, you need to know what is the weakest angle of attack you have against some decks and favor the deck for the other angles. One thing even pro players that do not know the deck too much comment things like "you can't dilute the deck too much", that is true for most combo decks, but not elves, sometimes you need to take all combo elements and just become a full fair deck, or you take the fair elements and go full combo style, I think your biggest issue here, is that you feel like you are diluting the deck, but you will be diluting if you feel you need to attack from all angles, if you don't, then you will start to feel very good about what to take out of the deck.

[PendelSteven]

The manabase already pushed to the very edge of how bad it can be. I don't feel comfortable making it even worse, even though I agree that manabase is REALLY right now. I think I'd rather try to work a Crop Rotation in there. But I also don't really see any room to make that work.

And I tried out your online decklist with 1 Crop Rotation this Sunday. I hadn't been playing for half a year and now I am pretty sure the paper is very different from online.

Decks played?
Lands. Sorry to say I didn't realise my DRS could still lower his lifetotal when Clacial Chasm is in play. Not that it would matter very much in game 3 when he started the match with a turn 1 Tabernacle .. 1-2
Eldrazi Aggro. I was unfamiliar with the matchup. Why are Eldrazi not artifact creatures again?!? 0-2
Bant. Game 1 I think DRS was forced, next turn my Quirion Ranger plowed, while still on a single forest. From that point on, I glimpsed and NO'd him from 19 to 0 exactly. Game 2 he strarted with 6 and I don't remember any real resistance. 2-0
Aluren. Won game 1 pretty easy with a NO. Game 2 was his. Game 3 ended in turns on the wrong side for him. Had to attack with everything due to time, then my blocker got countered... :/ 1-2
Esper. No real chance game 1. Game 2 was harder fought. 0-2 anyhow
Eldrazi Aggro again. Game 1 I started with 6 cards. I'm remember a Chalice on 1 and two discard spells for GSZ's. Game 2 I had a ScOoze online, but it didn't really matter. 0-2


Overall I think I definately played 1 NO and 1 Progenitus too little in the deck. I also remember vs Aluren my Choke didn't make a big impact: seems to me in paper Bayou is preferred over Underground Sea when you've already got Tropicals simply cause of the cost. Certainly if you're playing match 4 to get to 6 points.

I've also seen a lot of Lands and Eldrazi. And thus I'm thinking 2 Nissa main is not really necessary in paper. At least not here (Flanders/North-France/South-West-Netherlands). Certainly a Elderscale Wurm is also nice to have in the board.

So, finding a mix between the online deck and another player from my 'region' a bit, I think my deck will be:

20 LANDS
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven
8 forestfetchlands (I prefer 4 Windswept Heath & 4 Verdant Catacombs personally)

29 CREATURES
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Wirewood Symbiote

12 INSTANTS, SORCERIES, PLANESWALKERS, etc...
1 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Nissa, Vital Force

SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Karakas
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

And if that doesn't work, well, I also bought the Karakas since I needed one for my Infect deck :)

Thoughts? Anyone running some sort of list in paper as well?

[PendelSteven]

you can mull aggressively

It helps if you know what to look for in that case :D

[dte]

[...]
I've also seen a lot of Lands and Eldrazi. And thus I'm thinking 2 Nissa main is not really necessary in paper.
[...]
Thoughts? Anyone running some sort of list in paper as well?

Nissa is actually very good against eldrazi (which is a good MU), while you should not have boarded ooze in.

Otherwise the best card to beat easily both lands and eldrazi is blood moon. Packmaster is another card which beats eldrazi most often. And wit only one crop, your bokuja bog does not do much in the board.

[PendelSteven]

With only one crop, your bokuja bog does not do much in the board.

Having said that, Riley Curran won the SCG Open on 3-4-2013 with a Bojuka Bog in the side and 1 Crop Rotation main. Though, I have to admit, his 2nd CR was in the sideboard... So let me rethink...

SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Karakas
1 Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

... And I'll probably order 2 Crop Rotation reprints. I mean, I've got 3 from opening Urza's Legacy packs in the 90's, but as you know Infect also plays 1 Crop main and 1 in sideboard. With Bog and Karakas. And while a second Bog isn't that expensive, for now I'll swap my Karakas between the decks :).

[haganbmj]

Brief Eternal Weekend writeup with my Death and Taxes list.
(speaking of which I'm curious what my deck was filed under on the metagame breakdown)

Stuff (28+13=41)	Lands (20)	Sideboard (15)
1 Birchlore Rangers 4 Heritage Druid 4 Quirion Ranger 4 Wirewood Symbiote 4 Nettle Sentinel 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Elvish Visionary 1 Reclamation Sage 2 Craterhoof Behemoth 4 Glimpse of Nature 4 Green Sun's Zenith 3 Natural Order 2 Nissa, Vital Force	2 Dryad Arbor 2 Forest 2 Bayou 1 Pendelhaven 1 Cavern of Souls 4 Gaea's Cradle 4 Verdant Catacombs 4 Misty Rainforest	2 Surgical Extraction 3 Thoughtseize 3 Cabal Therapy 1 Scavenging Ooze 4 Abrupt Decay 2 Choke

R1 W - RG Lands
R2 W - Pox
R3 W - RG Lands
R4 W - Grixis Delver
R5 W - Czech Pile
R6 W - Grixis Delver (?)
R7 L - Grixis Delver Camera Match
R8 L - BR Reanimator
R9 W - Sneak and Show w/ Omniscience
R10 W - Czech Pile
R11 L - Sneak and Show


Tabernacle in rounds 1, 2, and 3. Lovely.
The delver decks were fine, the Czech pile decks were interesting. I only play every 2-3 months, so I hadn't really played them before. The one match definitely played more like Jund with Brainstorms.

My loss on camera was whatever, I made at least one obvious mistake in game one, could've played tighter in game 2 (especially with bouncing the qurion in hopes of drawing a glimpse), but game 3 was just dead hand after dead hand on a mull to 3.
Game one when he went to snapcaster his probe I think I should have let him. Then I get to nuke his other spells and get a bit ahead in the race. I bounced the Quirion instead of the Forest because I thought I wanted the mana source, but I think that was wrong too..

BR Reanimator turn 1'd Griselbrand game one, I thoughtseize and get active ooze game 2, then game 3 he has a t1 Elesh Norn on the play.

My R11 loss to Sneak and Show was rough, games one and two were fine - probably could've eeked another 2 points out of deathrite activations, but I don't think it was anything game ending. Game 3 I kept 2x Thoughtseize, Surgical, DRS, Fetch, Cradle. He Forced my t1 Thoughtseize pitching Show and Tell and I knew it was over.


Overall the list felt fine. Nissa came up a few times, but Choke was the real allstar. I might trim an Abrupt Decay, I definitely was thankful to have 4 sometimes, but without playing Chalice decks all day I think I could've gotten away with 3.
I missed having the 2nd Birchlore and a Fyndhorn Elves, more than a few times I got stuck with an inactive Heritage Druid and it reminded me why I usually only play 3.

The field was pretty diverse, there were plenty of different decks around me throughout the day. I wish I had stayed in the x-0 bracket as I think that's where the Delver/Czech decks were. The x-1 bracket was littered with BR Reanimator and I unfortunately hit one immediately.

I think it's about time to update my deck scans, I'll probably get around to that when I get home in a week and post some pictures.

Props:
- Almost all of my opponents being pretty cool.
- Choke.
- The Betafiend bringing me a sub.

Slops:
- Mulling to 3.
- BR Reanimator being a deck that exists.
- 11 goddamn rounds being more (non-cube) magic than I think I've played in 6 months.

[PendelSteven]

SIDEBOARD
....
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
....

Whatever. Make that:
....
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
...

Also 2 Nissa's main and no Crop Rotation.

That's what came out of what I faced last Sunday. Think about it: Shaman is pretty neat vs Lands.

[Doneval]

You can enter the discord group, it has been posted up some messages.

Discord has a place for instant chat, but it's absolutely horrible for finding information, reading past posts, or preserving anything. It makes me sad that it has been taking so much discussion away from this group. I think it's a loss for everybody in the long run.

[Doneval]

Game one when he went to snapcaster his probe I think I should have let him. Then I get to nuke his other spells and get a bit ahead in the race.

I thought you played nice and tight, and I love your Death and Taxes slow roll :-)

I'm curious as to why you think it was a mistake to eat the Probe when he cast Snapcaster. He would get to draw from casting it, so it seems that eating it with the Shaman was the right thing to do.

[haganbmj]

I thought you played night and tight, and I love your Death and Taxes slow roll :-)

I'm curious as to why you think it was a mistake to eat the Probe when he cast Snapcaster. He would get to draw from casting it, so it seems that eating it with the Shaman was the right thing to do.

I'm not sure what he draws with it matters more than the 2 life the probe costs.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

What's our preferred strategy vs. Czech Pile, these days? I've been finding this a frustrating match of late.

[Raizen884]

If you use SB choke the MU gets pretty good. Also you need to figure a way to push your advantage between T2-T4, those are the crucial turns on this matchup, you need wirewood+visionary or glimpse in those 3 turns, if you manage to draw 3-4 cards the match really goes to your favor, because their trades 2-for-1 takes time, while you already have pushed a big advantage which will probably get you even more cards on the future. This MU should be in your favor, Nissa is also an all star on the MU if you use her, she is very very hard for czech pile to deal.

[Viola]

Hey all, I know this post isn't strictly about competitive legacy, but it's pretty close, so I'll go with it. So I'm playing in a casual (but still competitive) league at a LGS. We're playing mono-colored tribal legacy decks in a round robin after we take a Christmas break.

I'm going to be piloting elves since I play it in legacy to begin with ... but this being a mono-color chalenge, I can't splash black, and I actually think fetches are frowned upon so I'm not sure that I'll be playing DRS or Dryad Arbor either, which means I'm going old-school.

Since there's definitely going to be merfolk, goblins, and probably knights too each playing some # of CotV in their 75, I was also thinking about main boarding a couple Reclamation Sages too. The single Archdruid is in there so Goblin Sharpshooter doesn't just wipe my board if I'm playing the goblin matchup. The Emrakul is in there for another GSZ target in case vampires decides to run extirpate / surgical or they happen to discard my craterhoof ... and I can't play progenitus due to mono-color rule.

Here's what I'm currently thinking:

14 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Nissa, Vital Force

1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Archdruid
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Reclamation Sage
4 Wirewood Symbiote

[lowpass]

If you're expecting a lot of CotV, I'd definitely consider Cavern of Souls, or if that somehow goes against the mono-color theme, then maybe Gaea's Herald. Why no Natural Order? Also -- you can't GSZ (or NO if you add it) for Emrakul, since she's not green. A good alternative might be Ezuri, Renegade Leader. For the same mana as GSZ for Emrakul (were it possible), you could GSZ for Ezuri and +6/+6 all your elves, with two mana left over.

[abombdiggity]

My current list and SB plan for anyone interested.

Main 60
28 Creatures
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Wren Run’s Packmaster
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

12 Spells
1 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

20 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard

1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Crop Rotation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas

BUG Delver
-3 Natural Order, - 1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Reclamation Sage. -1 Heritage Druid
+ 3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Choke
Sideboard hate- Golgari Charm/Marsh Casualties, Flusterstorm

Grixis Delver
-3 Natural Order, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Heritage Druid
+ 3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Choke
Sideboard hate- Forked Bolt, Lilliana TLH, Cabal Therapy, Flusterstorm/Pierce, Grafdiggers Cage

RUG Delver
-3 Natural Order, -1 Craterhoof Behemoth, -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Heritage Druid
+ 3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Scavenging Ooze, + 2 Choke
Sideboard hate- Cage, Submurge, Rough/Tumble

UR Delver
-1 Nettle Sentinel (Q. Ranger if you see Goblin Guide) , -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 WRP
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Scavenging Ooze
SB hate- Forked Bolt, Rough/Tumble

Aluren/Food Chain/Shardless
+1 Scavenging Ooze, Thoughtseize/Decay/Choke based on what you’ve seen
-1 Heritage Druid, X/1s- no wastelands, they bring in sweepers
Sideboard hate- Golgari Charm, Marsh Casualties, Invasive Surgery, Diabolic Edict

Burn
-1 Glimpse, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 WRP
+2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Scavenging Ooze
SB hate- Extra Searing effects, Volcanic Fallout

Death and Taxes
-1 Heritage Druid, -1 GSZ, -1 Nettle Sentinel
+3 Abrupt Decay
Sideboard hate- Canonist, Containment Priest, etc doesn’t matter

Aggro Loam
-2 Glimpse of Nature, -2 Heritage Druid, - 1 Nettle Sentinel,
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Bojuka Bog, +1 Scavenging Ooze
Sideboard hate- Deluge, Tabernacle, Golgari Charm
Eldrazi
-2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 Heritage, - 1 Nettle Sentinel,
+3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Scooze
SB Hate- Ratchet Bomb, Warping Wail

Lands

-2 Glimpse of Nature, -1 WRP, -2 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Heritage Druid
+2 Decay, +1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Crop Rotation, 1 Karakas, +1 Scooze,
SB hate- Chalice/Spheres, K return, Drop of Honey, Molten Vortex/Seismic Assault

Storm (ANT and TES)
-4 Glimpse, -1 WRP, 1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Visionary, -1 Symbiote, -1 Cavern
+2 Thoughtseize, +3 Therapy, +1 Surgical, +1 Bog, +1 Rotation +1 Scooze
(Less GY hate vs TES)
SB hate- ways to kill/bounce DRS

Reanimator (UB and BR)
-3 Wirewood Symbiote, -1 Reclamation Sage (UB), -3 Elvish Visionary ,-1 Heritage Druid (2 vs BR), -1 nettle
+2 Thoughtseize, +3 Therapy, +1 Surgical, +1 Bog, +1 Karakas, +1 Scooze
Sideboard hate- Show and Tell, Needle, Collective brutality


Ape & Show
-2 Wirewood Symbiote,- 2 Elvish Visionary, -1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -2 Glimpse

Dredge
-2 Wirewood Symbiote, -2 Elvish Visionary -1 Reclamation Sage, -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 glimpse
+1 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Surgical Extraction +2 TS, +1 Rotation, +1 Bog, +1 Therapy
Sideboard hate- Firestorm, Manaless has force/contagion. Take the draw vs manaless


4 Color Control, BUG Leovold
-2 Glimpse, -1 Heritage, -1 Nettle, -1 NO
+1 Rotation, +1 Karakas, +2 Choke, +1 Bog, +1 Scooze

Miracles
- 3 Natural Order, -1 Craterhoof, -2 Heritage Druid, -1 Gaea’s Cradle
+1 Scooze, +1 Surgical, +1 Bog, +2 Choke, +2/3 Decay
Sideboard hate
Stompy
-2 Glimpse, -1 Nettle
+3 Decay
SB Hate- Sweepers, Bridge

Elves
-2 Wirewood Symbiote, -2 Elvish Visionary, -1 Cavern of Souls, -1 Reclamation Sage
+3 Therapy, +3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard hate- Jitte/something similar to this

Infect
-2 Wirewood Symbiote, -2 Visionary, -2 Glimpse
+3 Cabal Therapy, +3 Decay
SB Hate- Additional Countermagic

[TiMeWaLk]

Hello,
Thank you for the list and SB tables. Few questions from my side:
- You have only 1 crop rotation, but you play 2 targets in the SB. Don't you think it's worth having a 2nd crop somewhere to fully use these SB slots?
- Any reason to use Packmaster instead of something else? (Ooze directly MD or Nissa for example)
- Why do you prefer the 3 cabal / 2 seize split? It looks a bit more dangerous than to have 3 seize / 2 cabal. (even though it's details)
- Against combo, you never board out a bit of GSZ. It's quite slow though. Any reason behind keeping them all?
Thanks again!

[abombdiggity]

Hello,
Thank you for the list and SB tables. Few questions from my side:
- You have only 1 crop rotation, but you play 2 targets in the SB. Don't you think it's worth having a 2nd crop somewhere to fully use these SB slots?
- Any reason to use Packmaster instead of something else? (Ooze directly MD or Nissa for example)
- Why do you prefer the 3 cabal / 2 seize split? It looks a bit more dangerous than to have 3 seize / 2 cabal. (even though it's details)
- Against combo, you never board out a bit of GSZ. It's quite slow though. Any reason behind keeping them all?
Thanks again!

I have a split of Crop Rotations, one MD and one in the SB.

I like Packmaster as a one card option to transition to a more midrange gameplan. Scooze is good at that, and has applications against combo decks, but it's not as impactful as Packmaster. Nissa also works in that slot, but it's a personal preference as I like the target to be GSZ-able. I've been testing a lot of different cards in that slot (right now my last 5-0 was with Dwynen), but Packmaster so far has been my favorite.

I like 2 thoughtseize because when I do board them in VS fair decks (at times I will board them in VS miracles and other unknown control decks) I only like having two of that effect. Therapy is, in general, better against combo. I would probably consider going up to a 4/1 CT/TS split before I upped the number of thoughtseizes. I used to run more thoughtseizes, but as I got a handle on how to use discard vs specific combo decks I moved up my number of therapies.

I rarely board out GSZ (only vs D&T) because I value the fetch an arbor mode so much against combo. I want to lead with a mana dork as much as possible, so 4 DRS/4 GSZ lets me do that.

Hope that helps! Anything else let me know :)

[TiMeWaLk]

Thank you abombdiggity. I have not played MTG for about 2-3 years but I want to play Elves again because it is such an awesome deck, full of tricks
I started to watch some videos & read threads a bit everywhere. But, I guess for a slot like Packmaster, I will have to test it by myself like you did.

I asked about GSZ because I saw video from Julian where he sides out 2 GSZ against Showl & Tell and BR reanimator. Basically, extremely fast combo decks against which our first turn is dedicated to cast a discard spell I guess.

How did the crop rotation package worked against Show and Tell? It is the only deck I am really scared of to be honest.

[abombdiggity]

Thank you abombdiggity. I have not played MTG for about 2-3 years but I want to play Elves again because it is such an awesome deck, full of tricks
I started to watch some videos & read threads a bit everywhere. But, I guess for a slot like Packmaster, I will have to test it by myself like you did.

I asked about GSZ because I saw video from Julian where he sides out 2 GSZ against Showl & Tell and BR reanimator. Basically, extremely fast combo decks against which our first turn is dedicated to cast a discard spell I guess.

How did the crop rotation package worked against Show and Tell? It is the only deck I am really scared of to be honest.

I really like it against sneak. Sure, we're not favored with it or anything, but it can slow them down a turn or two and forces them to rely on sneak attack more, so I am a big fan of it. Vs sneak and show I actually try to play a t1 elf and then start casting discard, so rotation works really well if they have that dumb t1 petal sol land show and tell out an emrakul hand.

[parsimonious]

This place really hasn't gotten a ton of motion lately!

How is everyone boarding versus czech pile? I've tried a bunch of different strategies, from taking out NO to boarding in more, and am not 100% on any of them yet. I can't tell if it's correct to just play like they don't have leovold or play every game like they always have leovold. I think the boarding should reflect that strategically, but I can't seem to find more success one way than another.