So, have you had a chance to play this version?Originally Posted by Zombie
Way too much mana for this small amount of business. And with more expensive lords, no Cradle and almost no untap effects for the Lords, the deck is easily 2+ turns slower than regular Elves. I understand that you're working on a budget here, but you should still be playing 4 Wirewood Symbiote before anything else. Blanking Equipment and setting up a draw engine with Visionary is just amazing. And even though Sylvan Messenger kinda helps with what you wanna do, you'll probably find yourself wanting to draw a non-Elf card surprisingly often in long grindy matches. And unlike Visionary it also gets worse post-board.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
You have 8 untappable Cradle effects, and Imperious Perfects need to be untapped to do anything scary. You have two untappers in a list full of absurdly juicy targets. I second Julian, load up on Visionaries, Quirion Rangers and especially Wirewood Symbiotes ASAP. The cards are going to be absurdly good and aren't expensive at all.
The kind of build you have is going to be an absolute champ at making shittons of mana, so you want something to do with the mana. Ezuri is good for that. 3 Sylvan Messengers, not as much. You want to hit those Zeniths for a big Hoof. 1-2 Messengers, max. Load up on Wren's Run Packmaster and a second Hoof. Maybe a second Ezuri. Just stuff. You have so much explosive mana generation, you need bombs and broken effects to play with that mana. Right now you just don't have nearly as much as you could.
So what do I cut for all of this stuff. And I agree it is far slower then it should be
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How about something like this?
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Imperious Perfect
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
19 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
I'm guessing Elves is one of those decks that occasionally runs 61 cards?
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Switch 5 Forest for 4 Quirion Ranger and 1 Fyndhorn Elves. 14 land is enough.
Edit: Quirion Ranger is already in there, my bad.
Go to 14 land anyways and perhaps stock up on mana dorks. T1 dork into T2 Quirion Ranger gets you a lot of bang for your buck.
Heritage Druids and Nettle Sentinels also work. And so does Concordant Crossroads.
Last edited by Echelon; 04-20-2016 at 03:39 AM.
Are Heritage Druids a must? $17 uncommons that are not unreprintable seems pretty sketchy
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They help. A lot. Birchlore Rangers would be a budget option. Concordant Crossroads can also mimic it, in a way. Chaining Priests and Archdruids is a lot of fun. Wirewood Symbiote suddenly allows you to untap 2 of those bastards, and so on.
Goddamn, I was still living in some happier, 09-y world where Heritage Druids were like $2 or something.
I joined Legacy when I found out my Glimpse of Natures were no longer crap rares, lol.
My idea of a casual Elf deck was Glimpse of Nature + Skullclamp... Have been running Glimpses since they came out, got them for 1,50 each. Luckily I was just in time for Heritage Druid. And I thought 2,50/piece was expensive at the time. Look at me now, dammit.
Had to fork about 10-20€ a piece for mine, I think? The NOs, though. Read Tinker. See it's not banned in Legacy for some reason. 3€ a piece, you say? Don't mind if I do. And just after that they printed Progenitus.I joined Legacy when I found out my Glimpse of Natures were no longer crap rares, lol.
My idea of a casual Elf deck was Glimpse of Nature + Skullclamp... Have been running Glimpses since they came out, got them for 1,50 each. Luckily I was just in time for Heritage Druid
Yeah... Those were the first expensive cards I got. Not the most expensive cards I own anymore, but that's a different story. They were at the time and boy was I excited to have them.
I only realized how expensive they have gotten when I sold some extra copies to a dealer. Back then he offered 2,50 € each and I was like "Sorry for the misunderstaning, they're not foil". He: "I know." Me:
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
That goes for a lot of cards. Sucks hard for new players. That first time you fork over a bunch of cash for just a few pieces of cardboard is such a tres-OMGLOL-hold (or at least it was for me).
I'd happily have all my cards worth a dime/card if it'd get WotC to print whatever we want in bulk. Just send them a list and a couple of bucks and have it delivered at home. Buying sleeves for all the decks I'd build would be a completely new strain on my bank account!
I started playing Julian's chaos elves at the beginning of the month and have managed a ridiculous 21-4 record in the legacy leagues since then. The deck is definitely challenging to play but without NO I think it is pretty well positioned against the current MTGO metagame with tons of miracles (2-1), storm (2-1), sultai (3-0) and eldrazi (2-0).
Here are some thoughts on the list
1. I never once missed natural order. Against the FoW decks (50% of my matches) NO is too risky and you would rather play a grindy game. Against the comb decks (25% of my matches) NO is actually too slow and you need to be the control role and hit them with all the disruption possible in games 2&3.
2. For the grindy(opponent is on the mono removal plan) matches I found Wren's run packmaster to be a total beating for when you cannot muster enough mana to cast craterhoof. It is also fantastic against tarmogoyf and eldrazi while being surprisingly relevant against the stoneblade decks where you sandbag it until you can cast it and guarantee value some how (cavern, symbiote, floating mana to make wolves) even if they have swords to plowshares. I would've been happy to cast it in about 50% of my matches.
3. Two caverns are a must in the current metagame. They were all-stars against chalice of the void decks (5 matches), miracles (3 matches), and all other FoW decks (another 8 mathes for a total of 16/25 matches). It was incredibly relevant in a number of games that I sandbagged a cavern and named beast with it on the turn I planned to win.
4. Gaddock teeg and scavenging ooze were somewhat disappointing while shaman of the pack was surprisingly good. The reason being that the former two don't synergize with symbiote and were not super relevant in most of my matches, so they were usually strictly worse GSZ targets than elvish visionary. However, I would definitely leave them in as they did pull their weight in the games that mattered.
Overall I loved the deck and highly recommend giving it a try. I also included my match log to give people a sense of how the games played out.
Eldrazi stompy W2-1
g1 chalice on 1. g2 op kept a land heavy hand and I won on t4. g3 op kept a 2x chalice hand and I had plenty of 2-drops and a cavern
dredge W2-1
g1 comboed on t2. g2 mulliganed into a slow hand but so did op and I eventually got ooze going ftw. G3 struggled to find a dredger especially after extracting trolls
sultai delver W2-0
g1 super grindy with DRS, symbiotes and visionaries. G2 GSZ for wren's run packmaster on T3 ftw
UB thopter sword W2-0
g1 t1 chalice answered by rec sage and shaman won through ensnaring bridge. G2 abrupt decay for 1st chalice, duress 2nd chalice and rec sage + symbiote ftw
esper stoneblade W2-0
g1 very grindy with 2x symbiote, visionary and shaman with rec sage for jitte. G2 abrupt decay for jitte left op with few threats and sylvan library for the grindy
zoo L1-2
g1 drew 7 lands. G2 t3 glimpse combo. G3 pithing needle on wren's run packmaster :-(
TEPS W2-1
g1 op had t2 win on the play. G2 2x DRS put pressure on op who had to mini tendrils just to survive. G3 opponent fizzled
Grixis delver W2-0
g1 op kept one land wasteland hand. G2 op ran out of gas and I held the ground with wren's run until I could find enough mana to glimpse
burn W2-0
g1 t2 glimpse. G2 glimpse fizzled by drawing 5 lands but op had nothing to win on the next turn
shardless sultai W2-1
g1 toxic deluge + hymn blowout. G2 packmaster + cradler ftw. G3 packmaster MVP
miracles W2-1
g1 drew 7 lands vs 3x STP. G2 op had no terminus. G3 extracted STP and 14 damage with DRS with packmaster to protect it through terminus
ELVES!! W2-1
g1 op had 2x glimpse while I was stuck with 7 mana and a craterhoof in hand. G2 cradle + heritage druid on t2 craterhoof on t3. g3 t3 hoof again
show and tell L1-2
g1 t3 griselbrand on a mull to 5. g2 t1 duress and op never found anymore action. G3 whiffed with 3 glimpses
miracles W2-0
g1 op never found terminus and I had symbiote/visionary going. G2 ground through 3x terminus and 3x stp with 2x cavern and pendelhaven (mvp)
punishing zoo W2-0
g1 multiple visionaries allowed me to grind through punishing fire. G2 pendelhaven + symbiote, visionary > punishing fire. finished the game with packmaster
miracles L0-2
g1 I get very unlucky and play right into 3x truly miraculous terminuses G2 kept a 1 lander and didn't get there through 2x counterbalance + jace
8-rack W2-0
g1 op concedes to symbiote + visionary. G2 t2 smallpox wrecked me. But op ran out of gas and I eventually ground back into the game
Eldrazi stompy W2-0
g1 shaman of the pack + symbiote drain for 18. g2 dump my hand on t2 with symbiote + visionary and hoof on t3
shardless sultai W2-1
g1 attack for 100 after wren's run stabilization. G2 2x wasteland and toxic deluge wrecked my glimpse turn. G3 nettle sentinel stompy ftw
dark maverick W2-0
g1 t2 glimpse t3 glimpse t4 hoof. G2 t2 value glimpse rec sage the jitte then get wrecked by zealous persecution but rebuild and hoof 2 turns later
esper deathblade W2-1
g1 t2 glimpse win. G2 wasteland screwed. G3 messed up my glimpse chain by not using GSZ to get symbiote and was left with no action but found the hoof in the end.
ANT L0-2
g1 slow hand with no interaction. G2 disfigure for teeg and thalia
imperial painter W2-1
g1 t2 grindstone combo. G2 extracted grindstones and symbiote + recsage. G2 2x glimpse to dig for a bayou so I could abrupt decay + extract grindstones
merfolk W2-0
g1 op concedes to t3 glimpse. G2 cast a hoof through a cavern on t5
ANT W2-1
g1 op t1 win on the play. G2 t3 hoof. G3 messed up my glimpse turn by playing 2 glimpses and leaving myself with 0 floating mana, but teeg got there.
Last edited by dwarshaw; 04-20-2016 at 01:36 PM.
Another (probably stupid) question: does Elves just lose to itself sometimes? I've had issues where I dump my hand and fail to find a payload. These are just goldfish games (suggested in the primer to familiarize myself with triggers), but it still feels weird when I can't find GSZ or NO. Awesome report dwarshaw! Do you mind posting the list?
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No, elf doesn't lose to itself.
You should not see it as a purely combo deck: if you fail to find a NO, glimpse, GSZ or the Visio-WS engine, surely you have a bunch of creatures? Just attack with them, and drain your opponent with DRS.
When in doubt, smash face.
Small situations might crop up where you should sandbag small, increasingly useless creature or two in hand in case you draw into a glimpse. But that's not going to happen very often, and usually if you have a lot of creatures then you naturally have some sort of engine going on.
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