Pyromancer's Ascension (Grixis Young Pyromancer)

[metronome2charisma]

what about nivmagus and fluster storm?

[trollking21]

How have the Unearths been working out for you?

When I was playing with snaps I was super impressed without it I'm looking for a replacement.
With snapcaster I was going unearth targeting snapcaster. Snapcaster hits field snapcaster targeting unearth unearth targeting pyromancer. I want to replace with another instant or sorcery though. Ideas?

Also the comparison to bitter blossom.
Bitter blossom.
- 1 turn lag
- tokens fly
- cost life
- 1 PER TURN
Pyromancer
If you have 3 mana you get immediate result
Chaining ponders and brainstorms gets value
Sweet interaction with cabal therapy.
2/1 body.

In the current shell I already can't support more lifeloss so 1 life a turn and bob and thoughtseize would kill me



Also about niv magus and fluster storm. Storm will not spam the Baird with copies because you only cast 1 flusterstorm. But if you already knew that and have a list in mind lets see it

[Tao]

The deck from the OP looks really great. I would play the list from the OP but with Confidants over Snapcasters.

This way you can more reliably put something on the battlefield on turn 2 that can take over a game. I would also like 3 or 4 Confidants but don't know what to cut. Like Snapcaster Confidant is also quite good with Therapy. Snapcaster doesn't seem like what this deck wants. The Synergies are there but it doesn't quite fit I think.

[catmint]

A deck with a couple of very fragile creatures as only winconditions. mjam mjam mjam punishing fire mjam mjam mjam
Beeing vulnerable to red removal is a big downside. Batterskull, Nimble mongoose, Goyf and Tomstalker are played for a reason.

[Tao]

Punishing Fire is not the most played card and there are even 4 Wastelands to deal with it.

[catmint]

Jund is a very popular deck that you have to keep in mind when building a deck. Having 4 Wastelands in this deck does close to nothing against jund. Even if you keep your wastes and don't use them on their regular lands (which will hurt your gameplan) they will play in a way to get at least one fire back before you waste. But they don't even need to get fire back. Jund plays more removal than you have therats. Some of it recurring.

I tested against jund with pyromancer-grixis a lot and trust me Tombstalker is the only trump. And even if you play 3 stalker powered by thought scour your overall matchup is still horrible.

Jund aside take a lot at Canadian. Forked Bolt, Rough Tumble... your threats will just die like flies while theirs will survive.

Pyromancer has the same syndrom as confidant. They might take a game over a game IF they live. More often than not they will die. Also confidant takes over games because he can draw into a lot more offensive punch, which is totally missing in this deck.

[HPB_Eggo]

^^^

Every Pyromancer list I've tested so far requires either an alternative win condition or 2-4 fat creatures to win through heavy removal. Lists here have neither and will completely fold to decks like Jund, which packs bigger creatures and enough removal to keep you from accruing much advantage from any of your smaller ones.

Either find room for some walkers, grab some fatties, think of something I'm not, or prepare to be bent over by dominant fair decks like Jund.

[Tao]

It is 4 Wastelands vs. 4 Grove and you have a dozen cantrips to pull ahead in that fight so it is not "omnomnom autoloss to Punishing Fire" like you claimed. And unlike Jund this eats Combo decks for breakfast so of course some other matchups are worse and Jund is probably one of them.

A few Tombstalkers might not be a bad idea for that reason but they don't go well with Cabal Therapy at all.

[catmint]

Please Tao can you drop the freaking wasteland argument versus jund. I've played countless games with canadian, bug delver and grixis variants against jund. All running 4 wasteland and all matchups are negative. Generally the more fragile the creature base to red removal the worse the matchup. Please test before you keep repeating the same argument which does not make sense at all for the reasons stated above.

To the argument "eating combo for breakfast". True - but I also eat combo alive with my Taam America builds and have positive matchups vs. combo with canadian and esper if tuned. All of those have much better tools to deal with Jund than what you brewed up. So you have to ask yourself the question on why to play it except of "it has some cool shananigans".
Win 5% vs. matchups where you don't need it but loose 15% vs. matchups where you needed help.

So far it does not pay off. Myself and others tested different grixis pyromancer version and so far probably nothing strong enough to make a constant impact I think. What has been posted in this thread is miiiiiles away from getting there.

[Tao]

I never claimed the matchup vs. Jund was good or that Wasteland is the best card ever against it and makes the matchup good. Stop putting words into my mouth. You claimed that the deck would autolose to Fire/Grove, I told why it doesn't.

[trollking21]

I rocked about 30 games with my list. ( before changing an adding baleful strix).
And while I didn't test against jund I did against test against Canadian thresh and the results were bad as bad as he's assuming. Like 2-10 getting 2for 1'd off of forked bolt makes you cry. First on the inside and then on the outside. You only have dismember or strix as outs to goyf.
That being said 4 pyromancer 4 delver 4 dark confidant seemed to get there on damage. The offensive punch is there.

That being said I may try a confidant-less build later that looks like this going big with talrand snap and stalker
2 jace
2 talrand
4 pyromancer
2 tomb stalker
4 baleful strix
3 snapcaster
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
2 thoughtscour
3 unearth
22 land

[SirTylerGalt]

What about Perilous Research?

With Young Pyromancer in play, it reads 1U: draw 2 cards.

You can also play it when a permanent you own is about to get destroyed, e.g. in response to a wasteland or a removal spell.

It's also a great combat trick against Batterskull / Jitte, where you can sacrifice your chump blocker before damage to avoid lifelink / Jitte counters.

You can also flash a Snapcaster Mage before declaring blockers, target Perilous Research, chump block a goyf, then sacrifice the Snapcaster Mage before damages to draw two. It's even better with a Young Pyromancer in play, since you keep the Snapcaster Mage and chump block with the elemental token.


I was also thinking of combining Perilous Research with Catch // Release to kill any permanent, but that's just too janky I guess...

[Grollub]

My initial thoughts, without testing it, on Perilous Research is it falls into the category "dangers of cool things". Without a Pyromancer it's a fairly subpar card, sure it has some situations where it's strong - but overall it's rather lackluster. I don't think a deck featuring Pyromancer should be a "Pyromancer deck", if that makes any sense.

[Shawon]

Here's my take on a Young Pyromancer-themed deck. It's not by any means tempo, hence why I didn't post this in the Grixis Tempo thread:

Lands: 19 (including Tropical Island)

Creatures: 11
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Death's Shadow

Spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Intuition
1 Dismember

I knew Cabal Therapy + Gitaxian Probe is a must have in the deck, as they are not only good on their own and work well with each other, they also make Young Pyromancer really good. Notice the Intuition. With a Young Pyromancer in play, casting Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapy nets you 1/1. Then, the next turn, you can cast the Therapy in your hand, net a 1/1, and chain flashback Therapies using the 1/1s netted from every Therapy cast before. Intuition may not be worth it with just Cabal Therapy as its only search package. I tried to run Accumulated Knowledge with Intuition, but it just seemed too slow.

There is no countermagic for now.

Since I'm using Probe, Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, I thought that Death's Shadow would be a good finisher that could turn my weakness of dealing lots of self-inflicted damage into a strength.

I don't like jumping on bandwagons, but let's face it, Deathrite Shaman has long earned its place as an Eternal staple. At first I had Grim Lavamancer instead of Deathrite Shaman, but Deathrite Shaman is just so good not to run, even if you have to run Tropical Island just be able to use DRS to exile creatures.

[uncletiggy]

I'm toying with the idea myself starting with a core of:

2 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Flusterstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 ponder

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

it leaves me with 8 open slot's my considerations are:

4 lightning bolt
2 chain lightning
2 inquisition of kozilek


4 stifle
4 daze

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

any idea's where to start would be appreciated other then needs more thoughtseize

[YamiJoey]

Why Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce? I agree that FS is harder to counter, but it also doesn't hit Diamonds and other various cards. I get that you can Nuv-Magus it up, but I'd still rather counter a Jace than not.

[uncletiggy]

3 pierce is included in one of the packages I purposed to be in the deck

[Quasim0ff]

I don't think trying to fit him into existing shells are the best use for him/(her?)

He/(she?) needs to get broken, and needs to get broken completely. In tempo-shells, she can provide 2 power to attack with on t3, which isn't enough, I think. I think all the cute stuff with therapy etc is cute and all, and could possible be put to good use by Sam Black, but if you want it in a blue deck, it better be broken.

Don't have a list currently, but I'll update my post once I figure something out.

("dies to removal" is the worst argument of all time. So does Delver, and delver is the 3nd best blue creature of all time (best being tinker, 2nd best snapcaster)

A deck with this needs to get all the brainstorms, ponders, dark confidants it can

[Holden1669]

I have been playing a control-ish list with Young Pyromancer for a few days. So far it's been playing pretty well and is quite powerful. Except for a few cards (notably Pyromancer) it mainly plays at instant speed, which is cool. Here's the list:


Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Curfew
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Fire//Ice
2 Unearth

Lands
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Force of Will
1 Deathmark
4 Baleful Strix

Curfew seems weird, I know. But it's amazing in this deck.

[grixis]

this is my list :

creatures (13)

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer

sorcery and instant (29)

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe

lands (18) :

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

ok, for the MD, my hesitations are :

- dismember or terminate (with bob, you dont often want to loose life, and terminate can kill all creatures)
- dismember or fire/ice ( it can kills snapcaster, bob, clique, two elves, shamane, delver, stoneforge..... and tap an tarmo to attack with your token and you draw a card)
- dismember or forked bolt, like the last player who perf with grixis on SCG ( forked can be nice, because, like fire/ice he can kill lots of creatures, make CA, i think to death and takes against mother, thalia, for example)

=> i need a anti-creature who kill tarmo MD i think (so forked bolt is not very good i think, no ?)

seconde hesitation is about probe and cabal :

- in fact, in played 4 cabal and 4 probe you have 15% to have them in your started hand and 30% to have them at your 5 turn, and dont forgot, we played this cards cause of their synergie with pyromencer (but put token on probe isnt very very good) but probabilities to have cabal / probe / pyromencer are not very good (29% on turn 8 if i remember)

So, my question is, why we dont play basic discard (kozilek or thoughtseize). for example :

=> - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 saisie ?

and the last hesitation for the main deck is :

spell pierce. i explain why : i hate play young pyromencer and dark confidant whan i cant protect them, so im not often play them when i dont know adversaire hand or when i have 2 mana (for daze, or bolt, stp...) but if i have 3 land, i can play them to be dazeproof and if i have spell pierce, i can play it against bolt, stp ....and protect my creature (and for pyromence put token immediatly)

=> so maybe - 4 probe - 4 cabal vs + 4 fow + 2 kozilek + 2 pierce ( i had test pierce today, and im happy about it)


now we pass to the side :

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (against dredge, combo..)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast (the same and delver, jace too)
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer (aggro, shardless, jund....)
SB: 1 Perish (shardless, jund, elfball, little maverick and knight of reliquary even if there are not lots of played nowadays)
SB: 2 Submerge (the same thaht perish)
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens (against chalice of the void, in france there are some MUD and big red now, and turn 1 calice is awful if i havent fow)
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm (same reason thaht smash, and to TT too, maybe dredgre and reanimator too)
SB: 2 Baleful Strix (against miror and middrange deck : tt, esper, deathblade...)
SB: 3 Force of Will (against combo deck of course)

my hésitation for the side :

- darkblast : i think its a very good card against all litte crea (snap, mother, thalia, grim, delver, clique...ELFBALL) and against shamane, stoneforge too. We can use it at upkeep => dredge 3 instead of draw and darkblast again. ok its litte expensive lol but it save my life sometimes (DTAXES, elfball..)

futhermore, its synergique with young pyromence to put lots of token and with grim lavamancer to put cards in graveyards

- a second perish (instead submerge maybe) because i expected to see lots of shardless, elfball, jund at the BOM paris and perish save my life lots of times =)

- flusterstorm : its confortable to know you have it against combo et ANT/TES particulary =)

- sulfur elemental or dread of night : i you thought that there will be lots of deat and taxes

i think its all for me,

thanks for reading

thanks for advices =)


ooohhh no, i forgot, i have seen this side somewhere, what do you think about that, it can make suprise =) :

sideboard :

1 griselbrand
1 iona
1 elseh
4 reanimate
2 exhume
4 entomb
2 faithless looting

anyway something like that. i tested it on cockatrice and people said : "you change deck" ; "what the fuck".

other strategy, you can play reanimator with pyromencer (its great with elesh). your opponent will side againt reanimator and at the second you enter delver, bob ...

THANKSSSSSSSSSS ! im waiting for answers =)