What? Turn 1 Goblin guide is the best one drop in that deck... Goblin guide does 4 damage by turn 2 unmolested, while delver MIGHT do 3 damage by turn 2, and MIGHT do 6 by turn three wheras GG had done 6 every game by then. You have to remember that this is still a burn deck. There is a reasonj that you play Lava Spike in the SB...Originally Posted by kiblast
I have run U/R Delver for a while locally. While guide is a GREAT turn 1-2 play and I love him in the deck, he sucks any other time. To me young pyromancer looks more like a mid range card. You want to drop him turn 3 and cast a brainstorm or burn spell to get value right away. I think RUG or Grix will end up making the best use of him, but a 4 color deck could work also.
Sure he isnt as good later in the game, but he is still needed in a burn deck. The fact that your one drop will more than likely deal 4-6 damage is absolutely amazing. Im just saying that UR Delver is a burn deck. Dont like the brainstorms and force of wills fool you. At its heart it is a burn deck. You do not want to play the mid range game because that gives your opponent time to get a BSkull or Jitte or something else that just beats you online. This is not a control deck and it is not a midrange deck.
Seems great in Grixis. As someone projected on Twitter (I can't remember who anymore), with a Pyromancer on the board, Probe -> Therapy -> Flashback Therapy is insane.
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Probe freaking rules man. Always cast that ish with a kicker though, it's just tragic otherwise.
SRSLY THOUGH. This card is my new favorite band. It had me at hello. I will enjoy the Manamorphose -> Gitaxian Probe -> Bolt Therapy Therapy plays. Oh shut up I know it's five different cards.
As far as Grixis goes, Snapcaster Mage seems like his best buddy. Bonus points for recycling Probes to fire up those Therapies.
Bingo. Seems like a hand destroying machine right there.
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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post725904
And no, UR Delver would rather drop a GG Turn 1 than a Lavamancer.
So you linked that thread because I should read what you posted and tell you you're right? I agree with Piceli89's reasonment instead. Pyromancer is a rather slow card? I don't see how can a cc2 creature that gives you an insane (for UR burn) board position on your turn 3 be considered slow. Makes your bolts more effective. Creates chumpblockers so you're not drawing dead turn 3 vs any Threshold or Goblin deck or any Tarmogoyf+ random blocker. Gives you a plan in case your burn spells are not enough and you don't manage to win on turn 4. Is a good topdeck, whereas GG is a bad topdeck after turn 2 otd or turn 3 otp. Gives you the possibility to drop bolts to Deathrites and Jitte carriers and SFM and at te same time build a fast clock. Maybe you always deal 20 dmg by turn 3 with UR Burn. In any other case, Pyromancer is better.
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So a CMC2 card is better than a CMC1 card in a vacuum? Really?
It seems you don't understand the strategy of UR Delver/Burn. Pyromancer needs a different/adjusted shell. Swapping GG for Pyromancer is not the right move, which is what my linked post explained.
As a U/R Delver player who has some top 8s with the deck I'll have to agree that Young Pyromancer can not replace Goblin Guide they bring about different strategies altogether. Also U/R Delver is a burn deck in general with more protection against Combo, basically that's it! No need to complicate it. It's angle of attack against the Meta is not to play fair but to play like a Combo Deck (Cast 7 burn spells and Win!). Speed is key because that's the only thing that Burn has going for it. Virtual Card Advantage is also something that U/R Delver wants to abuse.
Only match up where U/R Delver is defensive is against faster Combo decks or another burn deck. In this case I'd have to say Goblin Guide sucks! We are giving them more cards in the form of Brainstorm or lucky lands on top so they can combo us faster or gain more Card Advantage to beat U/R Delver in a counter war.
I believe that Young Pyromancer should fit into a different shell, it can even have a Niv Magus Elemental in it. Grixis sounds super good and it is not susceptible to Submerge.
Probably mean facebook. I commented that on Travis Woo's article.
I'm positive this little guy is the real deal.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...round-the-web/
I explain a bunch of things possible, some of which I misunderstood how they work, but well finding where this man fits best is just another puzzle to figure out.
Im sorry but I fail to see how a 2 drop 2/1, is better than a one drop 2/2 with haste when you are top decking... All Im saying is that UR Delver (UR Burn) is a burn deck. In a format like legacy where a lot of the times the critical turn is T2, tapping out for a 2/1 on T2 doesnt seem like the best thing... With Guide you can go T1 Guide attack for 2. T2 attack for 2, keep 2 mana open, Spell Pierce their play, Lightning bolt them, or something. Im just saying that UR Burn is a burn deck. No need to skirt around and try to be cute. You want them to go from 20 to 0 as fast as humanly possible.
Ok, le's do this once more again.
It is probably true that certain tweaks will be necessary to port YP into UR Burn, and probably it would result into a different deck; but it would result into a better deck, in my opinion.
Not to denigrate the archetype (not completely), but to me UR Delver has always been a poor halfway between straight burn and a sort of tempo-esque shell.
Why would you try to push your opponent's life total to 0 in the shortest amount of time with a no-card-advantage shell and really-shitty-into-midgame critters (Delver is impressive turn 1, way less turn 5; so is Goblin Guide, and Lavamancer) instead of trying to come up with a coherent structure that can start good on turn 1 but also keep the pace up in midgame, whereas UR Delver tipically unfolds?
Do you think that app.ly 1 turn faster given by Burn spells is enough to win in Legacy right now with consistency? Hint: it is not. Burn spells per se in a non-strictly-burn shell don't improve any matchup, and less than ever will prevent Griselbrand from coming into play, Counterbalance from sticking, and so on.
Take this example of a good UR deck that has clearly no good matchup but a shot against everything with extremely tight play:
Aj sacher
To add brag, take this list of mine that I used some time ago to first place, which, although pushing more towards the mid-late game, could be tweaked for YP by cutting Jaces, EEs, lowering the curve and putting in Delvers again:
Here
Do you see the world of difference in terms of resiliency and overall consistency between a possible good-curved shell (20 lands, 4 Delvers, 2 Grim, 4 YP, 2 Snaps, 2 Cliques) with the right balance of cantrips, counters and creatures (and 4 Bolts plus maybe 2 Forked) and the existing UR Burn, with Goblin Guide and a whole chunk of conditional-to-horrible burn spells (Chain Lightning, Price of Progress, Fireblast and so on..) ?
Don't you just hate the feeling of getting out of resources as every turn goes by, while the midragen deck piloted by your opponent buries you slowly and you're stuck with Goblin Guides and your gameplan becomes essentially to rip the right cards off the top? This is pretty much what you can see in every SCG Coverage featuring the deck.
There's a motivation UR Burn is not a tier one, and arguably will never be.
Young Pyromancer, if used in a Threshold shell that cuts spells with specific targets (Spell Snare, Stifle) which would not capitalize on him if drawn and adds Gitaxian Probe as a 3-ofs, would provide the following benefits:
- Resiliency to Rest in Peace post-sideboard, which is currently crippling the deck. Having 4 creatures weak to it instead of the whole 8 is different.
- Less relying on Tropical Island to cast creatures, thus to Wasteland.
- Having a strong turn 2 that will do disaster if left unasnwered.
- Related to above: Threshold, with 4 Dazes, 4 Fows and 3 Probes, is the deck that would better use it. Imagine a turn 2 YP with a Daze following on the opponent's 2-drop: you create a 1/1, untap, eventually Wasteland, the opponent is already in a stranglehold. You can basically 1-for-1 him from there and this will furtherly add you value at every spell cast, while before Threshold used to reach that critical turn where it either won on the razor's edge or died because of the other deck gaining control/over-resourcing (midrange).
- Creating blockers drastically improves Goblins, improves Maverick, makes Liliana's -2 less effective. Notice that I just mentioned all Threshold's neuter/negative matchups.
- Double Pyromancer stacks. I let you imagine what will happen against any fair deck.
Tarmogoyf is better arguably only against Burn, Dredge (non-existing decks in a wide field) and certain midrange decks where you need a fattie. YP is better against the upper tier1,5s - tier1s, including any Swords to Plowshares deck. Feel free to not believe me, but if you just try it out you can figure out how good he is.
Hint: he also has a non-direct sinergy with another power-2 drop in the Legacy metagame (not Snapcaster obv) which may generate another variation on an existing archetype.
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Depends on the build, I guess. In the Vial build, I would probably just grab a SoFI and laugh at your lack of viable blockers. Maze of Ith and StP obviously get worse against decentralized threats, though.
Would that be some kind of UWr archetype? :)
Awesome post.
I also noticed AJ Sacher's U/R list a few months ago. I really liked the synergy of Predict with Brainstorm / Ponder / Delver. His deck was like Next Level Threshold, without the green. I think that Young Pyromancer lets us build a green-less NLT version, without missing goyf too much. Ral Zarek could be an interesting alternative to Jace in such a deck.
I'm currently considering a Grixis Tempo shell that would play Delver, Tombstalker, DRS, Clique, and Young Pyromancer. It would feature targeted discard (not sure if I want Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy), as well as 2-3 Thought Scour. Thought Scour feeds TombStalker and DRS, helps clear the top after a brainstorm, is one more cantrip to feed Young Pyromancer, and annoys Miracle. It can also combo with discard: when your opponent brainstorms in response to hide his two best cards, you can Thought Scour them away :)
Man I don't really understand if you're trolling or not. I provided you lots of different scenarios. I'm not analyzing cards in a vacuum.So a CMC2 card is better than a CMC1 card in a vacuum? Really?
I do agree however on the fact that UR burn needs to be tweaked to accomodate Pyromancer.
Thank God.
As I highlighted few posts abopve, I can see URw Blade use this guy as well as a bodies/Jitte-Bskull carriers generator.I'm really looking forward to test it in UWr Blade tempo.
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Except when you aren't The Beatdown. When Burn/Sligh/RDW has to play control it starts throwing its clock away on stupid pap that the opponent drops, so that 6 damage in the first 3 turns is good and all but it needs more support than that.
The minute Young Pyromancer is assisting your burn spells in increasing your board position while keeping the opponent's side clear, that's when the advantage of YP is clear. Producing dudes from Brainstorms, Probes, Therapies(sort of), and so on is pretty rad too.
I don't think that anyone is going to tear the Goblin Guides out of their deck to make room for Young Pyromancer, that would be a damn shame. However, I still would submit that if I'm that Sligh player and I've got to prevent my opponent from just dropping a threat that pwns my gameplan, the play I'm going to prefer it "EOT, Bolt your guyWithTooMuchToughness twice, attack for 4 with my Pyromancer and two tokens" versus "EOT, Bolt your dude twice, hit for 2, give you yet another land".
Does Young Pyromancer/Pyromancer Ascension with stuff like Gamble and Regrowth make any sense?
Those lists you posted were not burn decks... When I am talking about UR Burn I am thinking of Andrew Schneiders burn list. The one where it is literally Burn.dec + Brainstorms, Delvers, and Forces basically.
And how many times does Burn take a control role and win the game? I dont see it happen very often.
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