Why does no one play Doomsday

[Adryan]

Played against doomsday played by Lejay a few minutes ago and i was wondering why no one plays it. Seems like a good and fun deck to play. Is it too complex in the world of S&T or is it inferior to other Stormdecks?

[Koby]

Played against doomsday played by Lejay a few minutes ago and i was wondering why no one plays it. Seems like a good and fun deck to play. Is it too complex in the world of S&T or is it inferior to other Stormdecks?

For the same reason why people prefer to watch a 2 hr movie rather than read a 1000 page novel.
Or order pizza for delivery than cook a 4 course meal for the whole family.

There are about 20 more decision trees to win with DDFT. Without disruption, yes it's academically easy. Against disruption, there likely exists a decision tree that wins, but you need to execute it flawlessly. The risk/reward/learning curve for this deck is so incredibly tough that it doesn't make it fun for most people.

Is it a telling sign that both Lejay and emidln both are putting their efforts into OmniDerp instead?
Winning with a deck that requires a PhD level of decision vs a deck a monkey can pilot.

[lochlan]

Even though you only need 2-3 piles to play it, to play it well you need a much deeper understanding and a ton of experience. It's easily the hardest deck to play, period. I've had a go at it a few times, but I'd rather master a deck with a lower learning curve. I can play TES with maybe (warning: numbers are about to come out of my ass) 80% competency, and I find it very rewarding to get that last 20% ironed out. With Doomsday I can play it with maybe 20% competency, and the rewards of that remaining 80% are hard to see in the face of the huge commitment.

It's also my understanding that Doomsday is also not great in the current discard-heavy format, which I think is part of the reason Lejay is on Omni-Clash.

Finally, a lot of storm pilots--myself included--enjoy winning in the first three turns (speed is one of the reasons these decks are so threatening), and Doomsday is much much slower. (Although substantially more resilient.)

For whatever it's worth I do think that, in a vacuum, Doomsday is the overall "best" storm list.

[lochlan]

Is it a telling sign that both Lejay and emidln both are putting their efforts into OmniDerp instead?

I think it's telling in that Lejay believes Omni-Clash is better positioned. Considering how well he can play the deck already, I don't think its difficulty is really an issue for him.

[Barook]

I think it's telling in that Lejay believes Omni-Clash is better positioned.

Omnitell variants are easier to play and have a way easier time to fight through hate thanks to the wishboard + drawn library.

[Dice_Box]

Played against doomsday played by Lejay a few minutes ago and i was wondering why no one plays it. Seems like a good and fun deck to play. Is it too complex in the world of S&T or is it inferior to other Stormdecks?

You would need a whole box of painkillers to deal with the Mental fatigue caused by playing that for 2 days straight. Its not played because it is as rough on the player as it is on their opponent.

[nedleeds]

I don't own 4 x Korean Doomsday's (yet) ...

Was convinced I'd get to drink via the skill intensive game when I read this thread.

Was disappointed.

Wouldn't read again.

[monovfox]

I play doomsday, and I will say that it is one of the harder brain-puzzles I've taught myself how to do.

For me it's about as hard as a normal rubik's cube was when I was first teaching myself how to solve it.

I don't play the deck sanctioned because 3x LEDs, the 2 most expensive decks, expensive dual lands, and I don't have korean doomsdays

also, I have had more success with death and taxes

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

In a sentence, because there is an incalculable amount of cognitive dissonance surrounding the archetype. In 2 paragraphs, because Doomsday has the reputation of an impossibly difficult but immeasurably powerful deck that can win in any situation with any cards against any opponent. If such was true, an above-average chess player would just win every tournament s/he played with the deck and the card would be banned. In Modern, Second Sunrise was what Legacy players want to believe Doomsday is.

In fact, it's a needlessly more-complicated storm variant that can occasionally fight through unlikely situations by getting lucky, sort of like every good deck in the format. The underlying issue I see is that the skill set required to pilot this deck is totally unlike (but certainly no greater) than most other decently complex decks such as RUG, Esper, or Miracles. In other words, any time one spent getting good with Doomsday wouldn't translate, which makes it an erstwhile waste of time for anyone who doesn't intend to dedicate themselves to the archetype.

[emidln]

Largely what makes one competent with Doomsday is knowledge of tightly managing your resources while using cantrips to maximize cards seen. As it turns out, that skill set translates almost directly to OmniHalls. As a bonus, your win condition goes from *stack your best five cards from your deck* to *just draw your deck already*. Instead of complex spell ordering, you abuse redundancy to end up with a SnT or Dream Halls and a kill spell. You then protect that with a bunch of free (or cheap) countermagic/disruption and collect your 3 points.

Doomsday is a complicated deck, but mostly because the vast majority of magic players are awful. This is also why ANT isn't nearly as dominant as the deck could be. The same questions and decisions you need to be awesome at RUG Delver, ANT, or OmniHalls are largely the same that get you into the situation where one of about three common piles KO your opponent with Doomsday. The problem with Doomsday is that by answering any of those questions incorrectly often leads to a game loss. These decisions are very hard to analyze without complete context and this makes getting better with the deck very hard and not very fun. I don't like spending a Sunday paying $40 to do something unfun and it seems most players agree with me. This makes Doomsday much lower EV (for someone who thinks that winning is fun) than RUG Delver (or Deathblade, OmniHalls, etc). Why do all the work and then do some extra work when you can short cut with Enter the Infinite, Ad Nauseam, or turning Tarmogoyf sideways?

The questions, for those who are interested:

Can I win the game right now? (i.e. do I have lethal on board?)
How might my opponent stop me? (i.e. don't walk into a trap)
Is there a way I can make my opponent's potential plays irrelevant? (i.e. path his blocker then swing with lethal; hold up spell pierce to counter a removal spell instead of playing ponder)
If I can't win right now, what puts me in the best position to win this turn? (i.e. should I cast this brainstorm/ponder/etc? should I play this extra threat?)
If I can't win this turn, what puts me in the best position to win in the future? (i.e. do I need to add an extra blocker to make my opponent drawing a blocker into a non-issue?)
Is this a situation where next turn's win will be more guaranteed than this turn's win? (i.e. is brainstorming into a maybe win seeing 2 new cards worse than waiting a turn to get full value out of brainstorm?)

[Lemnear]

Doomsday Tendrils is an outright inferior variant to TES/ANT/TNT but totally underestimated in combination with Laboratory Maniac.

However the Main problem is that those decks need to resolve Doomsday and have to alternative victory routes unlike TES, OmniTell or even Elves.

[HPB_Eggo]

It's a combination of things...

1) DD is incredibly unforgiving. Perfect play is required to do well, while you can occasionally make a mistake or two with more popular combo decks and still win games.

2) DD is flexible and can create a lot of different piles to win in many situations, but other decks can mimic the same flexibility while being much less taxing in terms of required skill and thought. They're also similar in terms of overall power level, so those decks are, while not necessarily 'better' in the strictest sense of the word, are better in practice in nearly every way.

3) It has never been incredibly successful so that, combined with the steep learning curve, means very few people ever pick it up to begin with.

So, yeah, pretty much what emidln said.

[Tammit67]

I enjoy doomsday very much and do not find much difficulty with hate I see coming. It is hate I do NOT see coming that destroys me. For the record DD isn't that much slower than AnT and is much more resilent.

I do not find discard to be that much of a problem, you just need more mana to solve that.

I do not find hate bears to be an issue, bounce can be found/tutored for pretty easily.

I find show and tell to be really hard to beat especially post board when they get leylines. THis is mainly with a 5c doomsday list, I assume the discard heavy lists are better here.

I want to learn the deck but my group is unwilling to help me test it so my only recourse is playing it at weeklies or locals. Those events are usually better served with me playing a deck I'll play at an SCG or at DC in November so that's where my concentration is right now.

[monovfox]

I enjoy doomsday very much and do not find much difficulty with hate I see coming. It is hate I do NOT see coming that destroys me. For the record DD isn't that much slower than AnT and is much more resilent.

I do not find discard to be that much of a problem, you just need more mana to solve that.

I do not find hate bears to be an issue, bounce can be found/tutored for pretty easily.

I find show and tell to be really hard to beat especially post board when they get leylines. THis is mainly with a 5c doomsday list, I assume the discard heavy lists are better here.

I want to learn the deck but my group is unwilling to help me test it so my only recourse is playing it at weeklies or locals. Those events are usually better served with me playing a deck I'll play at an SCG or at DC in November so that's where my concentration is right now.

Against SnT I recommend the "silence Walk"

[Star|Scream]

I tried to teach myself Doomsday on MWS, but found the whole act of exiling the library and graveyard was quite tedious and boring for myself and the other player. MWS is my only real way of playtesting (which is sad) so I just switched to ANT/TES.

[alderon666]

IMO Doomsday is too slow and the manabase sucks. If it could just play 3 colors, I think it would be fine. But needing to play white for Chant and red for Wish, just kills it. Playing a deck that tries to go off turn 3-4 against Show and Tell just seems silly.

[.dk]

I picked up DDFT in January of this year, and I honestly think it's the most fun deck I've ever played. I'm not great at it yet - I'm approaching a moderate level of competence. I still screw up now and then and that sucks - but finding a way to win through whatever bullshit your opponent throws at you has got to be one of the most rewarding play experiences I've had. Your opponents are confused because they don't know what you're doing, and assuming you know your list well and manage your resources effectively, there is a way out of most situations that will get thrown at you since your opponents usually don't know how to play against the deck.

The learning process has certainly been painful at times - I still lose to myself now and then by miscounting mana or fetching the wrong land. But, my local playgroup also usually finds the deck and the puzzles it provides to be interesting, and they have helped me play test for a while. I also have the deck on MODO, which has been great to gain experience with the deck, as resolving Doomsday on MODO is much less painful than in paper.

[Tammit67]

Against SnT I recommend the "silence Walk"

Yeah... but that doesn't work out so well.

They can either

• Let silence resolve and go off next turn with counters still in hand for your turn
• Counter the silence and go off anyway

It isn't great

[DarkConfidant]

I've been playing UBrg Doomsday for a while now.

Doomsday is more complex than other storm decks I've played. The usual argument against playing Doomsday is the learning threshold is ridiculously high. Koby is just right about the skill level and effort level versus other decks (even other combo decks).

I think the reason I enjoy Doomsday and and have stuck with it is the puzzle aspect and the ability to self improve. The deck creates an intricate set of game states that usually can be solved with proper sequencing and resource management. I find replaying and solving those puzzles to be interesting and rewarding compared to other decks in Legacy. In addition to the puzzle aspect, I think the deck offers a lot of ways to both measure and improve your skill. When playing Doomsday, like most other storm based decks, its easy to develop heuristic shortcuts. However, if you only rise to the level of being able to shortcut the deck, you're missing out on the real strength of the deck. Being able to play out of nearly any situation really interesting and almost impossible to do without putting a substantial amount of effort and practice. For example, cantrip management and fetchland use (both in deck construction & play) are much more difficult than most other decks out there because of the number of variables one has to assess. One can't develop heuristic shortcuts to solve those situations; it requires the ability to quickly assess the on board state, run through the possible decision trees, and commit to a line of play. While this is true of all decks, DDFT does not forgive whereas there is room for pilot error with most other decks.

-Just some random musings-

[Wanderlust]

I picked up DDFT in January of this year, and I honestly think it's the most fun deck I've ever played.

But, my local playgroup also usually finds the deck and the puzzles it provides to be interesting, and they have helped me play test for a while.

It's been fun playtesting against you as you've learned the deck! What I've realized as we test is how hard it is to play ideally AGAINST Doomsday - even though I'm not the one resolving Doomsday, I often have to think through the piles you are likely to make to maximize my own lines of play. It's seriously challenging.