Why does no one play Doomsday

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I tried to teach myself Doomsday on MWS, but found the whole act of exiling the library and graveyard was quite tedious and boring for myself and the other player. MWS is my only real way of playtesting (which is sad) so I just switched to ANT/TES.

Sadly that was the last nail into the coffin of me trying the deck.
The usual argument about how it's hard to master the deck is true, but the inability to test it properly, and the extremely difficult learning process, also the need to remember dozens of most necessary piles and be able to build any emergency pile, and the four color manabase, plus the quite slow win and finally the time limit during tournaments were the reasons why I moved my Doomsdays into the trade binder. I might build a DDFT just for the fun of it and annoy with it in our LGS, but honestly, the one who'll be the most annoyed at the end of the day will be me.

[Mr Miagi]

Foremost beacuse under all the "this deck is so skill intensive", "can win through shitload of hate" "Masters of Puzzles" in it's core this is still a bad deck.

Turn it how you want it, but if the deck would be any good it would have more decent placings. Yes it can be a bit more trickier to play it, it takes some , how to say, "skill", but then again there are quite few competent legacy players, we can even narrow it down and say combo players specifically and yet we still see a very niche success ocasinally with this deck.

I'm sorry but this is an indicator that it is not a top tier deck. I'd put it somewhere along with Solidarity in terms where it and its players want it to be and where it actually is.. low tier legacy deck. Period.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Foremost beacuse under all the "this deck is so skill intensive", "can win through shitload of hate" "Masters of Puzzles" in it's core this is still a bad deck.

Turn it how you want it, but if the deck would be any good it would have more decent placings. Yes it can be a bit more trickier to play it, it takes some , how to say, "skill", but then again there are quite few competent legacy players, we can even narrow it down and say combo players specifically and yet we still see a very niche success ocasinally with this deck.

I'm sorry but this is an indicator that it is not a top tier deck. I'd put it somewhere along with Solidarity in terms where it and its players want it to be and where it actually is.. low tier legacy deck. Period.

This reminds me of some Source quote about playing decks without Mystical Tutor and the perceived length of the penises of bad decks players that they mistake for difficult decks.

[Vacrix]

Why doesn't anyone play Doomsday?

For some reason, magic players get a rush playing with cards like Show and Tell. Pathetic really. I bet you think porn is real too.


There are plenty of fantastic decks that nobody plays but there's a point where the deck is only as fantastic as its pilot. Honestly, if you combine a cryptic archetype with a good, dedicated pilot you get a pretty vicious opponent.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Even the best pilot will be exhausted after dozen rounds with a cryptic archetype. That's when he starts to make mistakes and finally goes home without prizes but with a headache.
Some people play Magic for different experiences...

[(nameless one)]

Isn't there a simplified Doomsday list that feature Laboratory Maniac?

[Fossil4182]

Isn't there a simplified Doomsday list that feature Laboratory Maniac?

There was / still is. The list required binning Lab Maniac and then casting Unearth. It was a great strategy until Deathrite Shaman was printed - Abrupt Decay also puts a bit of a dent in the plan was well...

[Julian23]

To be fair, Abrupt Decay changed absolutely nothing about the positioning of the Dommsday-Unearth-Maniac builds. Just like with any other removal spell, you calculate +x instat draw effects like Top or Brainstorm.

[.dk]

There was / still is. The list required binning Lab Maniac and then casting Unearth. It was a great strategy until Deathrite Shaman was printed - Abrupt Decay also puts a bit of a dent in the plan was well...

You can still pretty easily win without Mental Note / Unearth path. You just need 1 more mana to cast Maniac instead.

The larger issue with Menendian's version (IMO) was actually having difficulty finding Doomsday itself. It's only a 4 of in that version, whereas DDFT runs 3 along with 3-4 Burning Wish in the maindeck making Doomsday much easier to find. I tried adding 2 Lim-Dul's Vault in addition to 4 Doomsday, and while I was able to find Doomsday more consistently, the only things I could find to cut were protection which kind of defeated the purpose. You could add red for Burning Wish, but that also gets a lot worse without Lion's Eye Diamond, and then reduces one of the strengths of the UB version being able to play lots of basics.

My thoughts, anyway.

[AEnesidem]

The reason is that you have to work very hard to achieve not much more than another deck could.

It's an interesting deck and it's fun but you have to be damn passionate about it to achieve something with it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I picked up DDFT in January of this year, and I honestly think it's the most fun deck I've ever played. I'm not great at it yet - I'm approaching a moderate level of competence. I still screw up now and then and that sucks - but finding a way to win through whatever bullshit your opponent throws at you has got to be one of the most rewarding play experiences I've had. Your opponents are confused because they don't know what you're doing, and assuming you know your list well and manage your resources effectively, there is a way out of most situations that will get thrown at you since your opponents usually don't know how to play against the deck.

The learning process has certainly been painful at times - I still lose to myself now and then by miscounting mana or fetching the wrong land. But, my local playgroup also usually finds the deck and the puzzles it provides to be interesting, and they have helped me play test for a while. I also have the deck on MODO, which has been great to gain experience with the deck, as resolving Doomsday on MODO is much less painful than in paper.

Here's what I did at a recent tournament.

I cast Show and Tell.

With Omniscience in play, I drew my library.

I cast Cunning Wish for Release the Ants.

Opponent has countertop online and reveals a Counterbalance.

I cast Emrakul, miss my trigger and pass the turn.

I win.

[Kich867]

Did you resolve enter the infinite incorrectly? There's no reason to miss your trigger here, you have a card on top of your library for the next draw step and can repeatedly cast enter the infinite to put a card on top of your library.

[Ogh!]

Doomsday Tendrils is an outright inferior variant to TES/ANT/TNT but totally underestimated in combination with Laboratory Maniac.

However the Main problem is that those decks need to resolve Doomsday and have to alternative victory routes unlike TES, OmniTell or even Elves.

I disagree. How can it be outright inferior when there are plenty of very realistic situations when TES/ANT just scoop it up whereas DDFT just needs to find an additional 1U or Karakas? Yes, I'm talking about you, (T2) Gaddock Teeg. Also, hordes of Ethersworn Canonists, Thalias, Mindscensors and what not die already G1 pretty regularly thanks to BW into Massacre/Virtue's Ruin. On average, TES goes off on turn 2,2-2,4. Claiming that you'll always go off before a hatebear hits, would be a lie. Once there's a hatebear or Leyline on the board DDFT is very likely superior to TES/ANT.

Now, DDFT is slower than TES. That's for sure. Whether it's really slower than ANT, I'm not so sure. The absolute minimum mana requirements (with the minimum number of cards involved) to go off with DD are BBBUU with GP in hand, which is equal to the 5 mana you need to resolve ANT. However, there are numerous combinations that allow you to go off for less. E.g. BBB1 if you have 2 GPs in hand or just BBB if you have GP in hand and SDT in play. Now, DDFT doesn't play Cabal Rituals and fewer Lotus Petals. So, ANT will definitely have more Turn 1s and Turn 2s, however, ANT will also have many more outliers on the other side of the curve. DDFT plays more cantrips plus SDT with fetchlands, which let you find one of your 6-7 business spells much more consistently than ANT. Also, you're much less dependent on your life total with DDFT, i.e. you can sculpt your hand longer and find more mana, which at least partly compensates for the loss in explosiveness. In addition (everybody knows this): Once you resolve DD, there is no variance. Either you win or you lose because you fucked it up. You don't die due to drawing cards in the wrong order. Really, if you're a very good DDFT pilot, I don't see much reason to play ANT over DDFT.

TES is a different animal. It's quick and dirty and I can clearly see why someone would prefer it to DDFT or ANT. Yet, it's not strictly dominant to DDFT. That's a very wrong assertion.

[Lemnear]

You miss 2 important points which smash most of the stuff you wrote.

TES can grapeshot the whole board of hatebears and don't scoop to turn 2 Teeg, Cannonist or Thalia. It does not fold to Leyline of Sanctity due to Chain of Vapor or fancy EtW + Silence-Walk to victory.

DDFT vs. ANT has the Problem of the learning curve and a majority of players prefer the easier and more linear choice here, which is no suprise.

[Ogh!]

You miss 2 important points which smash most of the stuff you wrote.

TES can grapeshot the whole board of hatebears and don't scoop to turn 2 Teeg, Cannonist or Thalia. It does not fold to Leyline of Sanctity due to Chain of Vapor or fancy EtW + Silence-Walk to victory.

DDFT vs. ANT has the Problem of the learning curve and a majority of players prefer the easier and more linear choice here, which is no suprise.

Yes, you can Grapeshot. But on average you'll burn a lot of your resources to do so. +1 due to Thalia for BW + Grapeshot costs you already 6 mana. That's no small feat to achieve for land-starved TES pilots without using your precious rituals/petals (which also cost +1 in case of Thalia). DDFT pilots cast either Massacre for 4 mana and are very able to do so without burning IMS/rituals due to playing more lands or just get the removal spell this turn and cast Massacre the next turn and just go off. By the way, how do you Grapeshot an Ethersworn Canonist?

And to find one of your 2 CoVs via Ad Nauseam to bounce Leyline is not really a 100% chance as it is for the DDFT player building IU-LED-CoV-LED-BW. I also believe you know that much better, but EtW is always a big risk vs. Thalia/Teeg players because of the SFM package. Silence walking your opponent is something that 5C DDFT can do as well. Many 5C lists even play more chant effects than TES.

I do fully agree with your second statement.

[Zombie]

Petal, Grapeshot. Mom makes things gnarly though.

[Ogh!]

Petal, Grapeshot. Mom makes things gnarly though.

True. And Mom does nothing against Virtue's Ruin/Massacre.

I think it's very clear that DDFT is superior most of the time once a hatebear hits the board. That doesn't mean that TES is worse than DDFT. Not at all.

But the biggest reason to play DDFT:
It'is just beautiful. Compared to other Storm decks it's like art. Calling it showboating to grapeshot for 1 million is nothing compared to solving a crazily difficult DD-puzzle. To get the gist of what I mean, try to solve these scenarios (fantastic article, too!):

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Puzzling.html

Compared to what you can read on the stormboards or what you'll encounter from time to time, these are easy ones. Maybe this article convinces some other storm pilots to play DDFT. I loved it :)

[Tammit67]

Doomsday fights better through expected hate than any other storm deck I've played. I've never seen a combo deck give less of a fuck about gaddock teeg.
As a result though, it is a tad slower and surprisingly weaker to cards other similar decks aren't, like Helm of awakening, grindstone, thoughtscour, qasali pridemage, extraction effects, aven mindscensor, krosan grip, burn spells...

[Koby]

Doomsday fights better through expected hate than any other storm deck I've played. I've never seen a combo deck give less of a fuck about gaddock teeg. (1)
As a result though, it is a tad slower and surprisingly weaker to cards other similar decks aren't, like Helm of awakening, grindstone, thoughtscour, qasali pridemage, extraction effects, aven mindscensor, krosan grip, burn spells...

(1) Have you seen Tin Fins? Good lord does it not give two shits about Gaddock Teeg! (attack you with Emrakul) However it is now vulnerable to non-Storm hate cards like DRS. Looking for the mythical Storm deck that doesn't care about anything. Isn't that Belcher?

[Ogh!]

Doomsday fights better through expected hate than any other storm deck I've played. I've never seen a combo deck give less of a fuck about gaddock teeg.
As a result though, it is a tad slower and surprisingly weaker to cards other similar decks aren't, like Helm of awakening, grindstone, thoughtscour, qasali pridemage, extraction effects, aven mindscensor, krosan grip, burn spells...

Most of the time you can disregard Surgical Extraction. I've yet to encounter a player who uses Extraction post-DD for the shuffle effect. Even G2 or G3 after they know what I play. "EoT extract your Brainstorm!" "Nice play, bro, you got me." :)

Although... I remember a cheeky bastard who extracted the DD in my GY at the end of his turn, after he sacced all of his permanents to Annihilator 6 while I just had one card left in my library. Fortunately, it was CoV! :)