[Article]Eternal Europe: Raiding The Necromancer's Vault

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

C.K. productions proudly presents: Even more ways to efficiently count to ten.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ers-Vault.html

Enjoy & test it out!

[rxavage]

C.K. productions proudly presents: Even more ways to efficiently count to ten.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ers-Vault.html

Enjoy & test it out!

Excellent! I will be trying out a similar list. Also, this has also inspired me to go back to my Reanimator list with LDV and try out STD.

[Star|Scream]

Thanks for the article!!

My two questions:

Does adding top and LDV slow the deck down from the 12 cantrip version?

Does it shore up any matchups over the cantrip counterpart?

[.dk]

Sweet article - I was liking LDV in Tin Fins for the same reason once Gitaxian Probe was added. Based on number of draws you have, it becomes like a kind of "mini-doomsday" as you said. Finding business + protection and being able to draw both and just win is such an amazing feeling.

I love pieces like this on utilizing complicated and intricate cards (Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, Cabal Therapy, etc). Probably because I also love playing with overly complicated and intricate cards too... ;) But in general, articles like this are usually my favorite. Keep them coming if you have any more!

[Jin Gitaxias]

Can someone give me a more in depth explanation of how cycling through your deck with LDV works?
I understand that you can make new piles when you go through your entire deck given that the number of cards in your deck can not be divided by five. But how do you calculate if the first new pile that comes up is 2 cards from pile A en 3 cards from pile B and not 1 card from pile A and 4 cards from pile B?

[Namida]

Actually, the way I learned how to do this is from reading an old post emidln made years back when people were using it in Doomsday. I haven't been able to find the post, but basically, your piles as you resolve Lim-Dul's Vault and loop through your deck change based on how many cards away you are from a number that is divisible by five.

At 50, 45, etc., looping changes none of the piles.

At 51, 46, etc., your piles when you loop will be comprised of one card you put on the bottom of your previous pile.

At 52, 47, etc., your piles when you loop will be comprised of two cards you put on the bottom of your previous pile.

In other words...When you cast Vault and your deck has 53 cards in it and you see a pile that has three cards you want but two you don't care for, you could put them on the bottom of that current pile. If the next pile has two cards you want, you can put them at the top of the pile and loop through the deck to see a pile of those five cards (The bottom three of the first pile plus the top two of the second pile).

There are many other things you can be taking into account (which is why LDV is an insane card), but I think that sufficiently answers your question on determining which cards will be in your piles.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@rxavage: Reanimator looks like a good home for LDV, too, with the Reanimation effects taking the role of the abundant combo piece similar to the Rituals in Cabal ANT. Happy you enjoyed the article!

@Star|Scream: Thanks for reading :) As to your questions, the 16 cantrip version is actually the slowest version in a certain sense because you often take longer to find an actual business spell than versions that have business other than AdN, PiF and Infernal. That's actually the big reason I've always favored the Grim Tutor build before: less trouble hitting business on time in goldfish mode. Given that I'm generally able to win the turn after LDV resolves (usually turn 2 because of the UB manacost, so turn 3 win) I think Vault actually speeds up the deck compared to other options.

As for shoring up matchups, no it doesn't. It just makes the deck more consistent and slightly faster, which means you just get a generally slightly stronger deck instead of helping any matchup in particular.

@.dk: Thanks,I like this type of article, too (both to read and write). I don't have any particular card on the backburner at the moment but you can be sure you'll see similar articles when I do :) As for LDV in TinFins, it would definitely makes sense for them to work well. Vampiric Tutor for Entomb is excellent and you have enough acceleration/reanimation effects to be able to set up the full win with LDV with some regularity.

@Jin Gitaxias: Namida's explanation works well. For me personally, an easy way to keep track of this is the following thought process: I imagine that instead of putting the 5 card piles onto the bottom of my library, I use them to build a new "bottom library" next to the original one I'm cycling through. If there are 48 cards in my library and I keep moving through it in piles of five, at some point I'll have moved through 45 cards. Now I just have to imagine that instead of putting the cards straight on the bottom I construct the "new" library next to the old one. That way I can "see" that there will be exactly three cards still lying where my original library was. As a result, I know that once I pay 1 life again, I will see new piles constructed out of the bottom three cards of pile A (the one going to the bottom first) and the top 2 cards of pile B (the one going to the bottom after pile A). Does that clear things up?

@Namida: True, I remember that post now. Was a very sweet explanation! Thanks for clarifying and reminding me of that!

[emidln]

@Namida: True, I remember that post now. Was a very sweet explanation! Thanks for clarifying and reminding me of that!

For anyone interested in the older mechanical analysis and some play situations, here are some links to storm boards stuff on the subject.

The mechanical primer spoke of:
http://teamstormboards.proboards.com...33&page=4#2893

Link to a situation involving LDV with solution explanations from cheeseburger and myself:

http://teamstormboards.proboards.com...lay&thread=177

[Megadeus]

@Jin Gitaxias: Namida's explanation works well. For me personally, an easy way to keep track of this is the following thought process: I imagine that instead of putting the 5 card piles onto the bottom of my library, I use them to build a new "bottom library" next to the original one I'm cycling through. If there are 48 cards in my library and I keep moving through it in piles of five, at some point I'll have moved through 45 cards. Now I just have to imagine that instead of putting the cards straight on the bottom I construct the "new" library next to the old one. That way I can "see" that there will be exactly three cards still lying where my original library was. As a result, I know that once I pay 1 life again, I will see new piles constructed out of the bottom three cards of pile A (the one going to the bottom first) and the top 2 cards of pile B (the one going to the bottom after pile A). Does that clear things up?

Regarding this, would you actually be allowed to set the cards aside in the correct order, until you finish resolving the spell or need to use those cards for the full loop?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

@emidln: Sweet, thanks!

@Megadeus: I actually have no idea if you could just put the already Vaulted cards in a new pile and declare that its on the bottom of your library. I don't think it's actually necessary/helpful, though. You aren't allowed to look at them again (without first looping through completely) anyway and you need to count out if you can loop and by how many cards before starting already so you might as well just put the cards straight to the bottom of your deck when paying the life (after ordering them correctly).

[lyracian]

I have always liked LDV; I expect there will be a rash of sales after this article.

Your example 3 of Mull to 6 shows seven card images. I am guessing you added the Volcanic later to make a point about counting the number of cards in your deck?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

I have always liked LDV; I expect there will be a rash of sales after this article.

Your example 3 of Mull to 6 shows seven card images. I am guessing you added the Volcanic later to make a point about counting the number of cards in your deck?

I wish! In all honesty, I'm not sure how that happened. Clearly I didn't add a card to the hand by accident after writing the analysis as it takes all seven cards into account (I would either have removed the reference to the mulligan or changed the analysis if the added card were intentional), so I assume I accidentally mulled to seven and never realized. :/ Sorry about the mess up and thanks for catching it!

Also, yeah, LDV is sweet and I'm quite happy to be playing with it for once :) As for the sales, how many Storm players are there, really? ;)

[thefringthing]

Is there a rule that says when you look at card and then put then on the bottom of your library, you can do so in the order you want?

401.4. If an effect puts two or more cards on the top or bottom of a library at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order. That library’s owner doesn’t reveal the order in which the cards go into his or her library.

[ThediscoPower]

I tryed out your list (Carsten) right after I saw the article, the only difference being that I don't play the senseis for 2 preordains instead. So far, I absolutely loved it. The only thing that is bothering me is sideboarding one petal, but if you say that it has been good for you so far, then I am willing to do it. Very good work on this!!!

[Mr Miagi]

As for the sales, how many Storm players are there, really? ;)

How many Minotaur players are there, really? Look at the Didgeridoo ;)

[ThomasDowd]

Is there a rule that says when you look at card and then put then on the bottom of your library, you can do so in the order you want?

Thanks!

Oracle text via gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=159832

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Oracle text via gatherer.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=159832

Thanks for taking care of the rules question, both of you!

@ThediscoPower: Happy to hear you enjoy the list. As for the Petal, I haven't really played enough with the latest version to be even close to confident in my conclusions on the card. I tried cutting it because Martin had done so and so far I haven't consciously missed it. It might well be important enough to force back in, though, especially as it's the only way to go turn 1 LDV into turn 2 win.

@MrMiagi: Lol, alright, point taken!

Also, I want to ask the following question (inspired by a comment back on SCG): How many of you would be interested in reading a "Beginner's Guide to Storm"-type article in which I explain how, imo, one should go about learning to play storm?

[Koby]

I would love to see a similar article on effective Cantripping in cantrip heavy combo decks that feature Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe; possible also Top and Preordain. Effective ways to see lots of cards for least mana etc.

[Kayradis]

I do believe it could be a good idea.

More and more storm/combo decks are appearing in the multiple circuits around the globe, and some players, thinking it only requires you to count to 10 grab the deck and cast Tendrils, fail miserably at it and shelve it for XX years.

You having a much more easily accessible tribune for the masses with SCG will probably clarify a lot of misconceptions on the archetype.

[Squirrel]

Also, I want to ask the following question (inspired by a comment back on SCG): How many of you would be interested in reading a "Beginner's Guide to Storm"-type article in which I explain how, imo, one should go about learning to play storm?

I would love to see a similar article on effective Cantripping in cantrip heavy combo decks that feature Brainstorm, Ponder, and Gitaxian Probe; possible also Top and Preordain. Effective ways to see lots of cards for least mana etc.

I would appreciate both articles. This could also be the base for an ANT Primer, including other articles.