sinkhole is bad and that makes me sad

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Jesus, everyone here makes it sound like dedicated LD decks are the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from. Hasn't anybody seen what happens when those rad LD decks don't draw their nuts? They tank so fucking hard that it's all they pilot can do to keep themselves from throwing all 75 into a toilet.
...Like, I don't think it fixes anything in Legacy in any fair configuration...

Not everyone plays Legacy... WotC thinks that LD loses them the kitchen crowd, and I believe they have far more data than you got.
Also, what is "the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from"? Most people hate when they are unable to play their spells for whatever the reason (be it manascrew, colorscrew, resistors, etc.), at least that's the kind of whining I hear most often. And from my experience, playing against Pox/Stax is the most annoying in all the Magic - games tend to last for eternity, especially Stax does nothing for many turns, and then the more lucky guy of the two wins 1:0 because he finally draws and sticks Delver/Goyf, LED/IT, Bloodghast/NetherSpirit or Elspeth/Mishra; this of course takes no less than 50 minutes and is full of action like "draw, go".

[evanmartyr]

Not everyone plays Legacy... WotC thinks that LD loses them the kitchen crowd, and I believe they have far more data than you got.
Also, what is "the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from"? Most people hate when they are unable to play their spells for whatever the reason (be it manascrew, colorscrew, resistors, etc.), at least that's the kind of whining I hear most often. And from my experience, playing against Pox/Stax is the most annoying in all the Magic - games tend to last for eternity, especially Stax does nothing for many turns, and then the more lucky guy of the two wins 1:0 because he finally draws and sticks Delver/Goyf, LED/IT, Bloodghast/NetherSpirit or Elspeth/Mishra; this of course takes no less than 50 minutes and is full of action like "draw, go".

Stax maybe, reasonably well put-together pox decks (see 8rack in modern) actually have a clock, or a soft lock, that makes it clear you'll lose soon. When you have a Liliana or a Raven's Crime + Dakmor Salvage, a rack effect, and an Ensnaring Bridge, people tend to concede to save some time.

I feel like it's a bigger deal that aggro decks have been completely pushed out of the format than that there are no good dedicated board control decks.

Goblins just won in Minneapolis. Seems like maybe the death of aggro is a bit overblown?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, the modern (and Modern) Pox decks are not that slow like the ones that were winning with sole Nether Spirit.

[Megadeus]

Yep, the modern (and Modern) Pox decks are not that slow like the ones that were winning with sole Nether Spirit.

They also played mishras factories. If people don't like playing against pox and stax they really shouldn't be playing legacy. Land and mana attacking is a part of almost every deck in three format

[nedleeds]

This. Hell, play this:

[cards]
3 Vendetta

I'm pretty sure Vendetta will never be cast in competitive magic again with DRS running around. I think you are looking for Disfigure.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They also played mishras factories. If people don't like playing against pox and stax they really shouldn't be playing legacy. Land and mana attacking is a part of almost every deck in three format

Thinking...

Ok, so you're confirming my words that manadenial drives ppl away from game and that WotC might dislike it?

[FTW]

I'm pretty sure Vendetta will never be cast in competitive magic again with DRS running around. I think you are looking for Disfigure.

How do you play Deathrite Shaman in Peasant magic? Bring silver paint with you? Or are you showing up with DQ-me-already-so-I-can-go-buy-lunch.dec?

Vendetta is to hedge against any random creatures that might be bigger than 2/2 (e.g. Mogg Flunkies), since 7 Disfigure looks pretty narrow. If you thought that was for a sanctioned format, I'm surprised you were more concerned about Vendetta than 4 Strip Mine + 4 Black Vise...

[nedleeds]

How do you play Deathrite Shaman in Peasant magic? Bring silver paint with you? Or are you showing up with DQ-me-already-so-I-can-go-buy-lunch.dec?

First off why are we talking about peasant magic on the source? Is that a format for slightly less poor people than the pauper crowd? You can discuss poor people magic at

Pauper and Peasant Information

[FTW]

First off why are we talking about peasant magic on the source? Is that a format for slightly less poor people than the pauper crowd? You can discuss poor people magic at

Pauper and Peasant Information

If you read the post I quoted, I was replying to a comment that Sinkhole could be played alongside Strip Mine in Peasant. We were basically agreeing that is the only format where Sinkhole still maintains its power level, largely because it is overpowered as a common and you can run it alongside 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Strip Mine against decks with 10-18 lands. Seems good.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If you read the post I quoted, I was replying to a comment that Sinkhole could be played alongside Strip Mine in Peasant. We were basically agreeing that is the only format where Sinkhole still maintains its power level, largely because it is overpowered as a common and you can run it alongside 4 Dark Ritual + 4 Strip Mine against decks with 10-18 lands. Seems good.

Yeah, it could be played in Pauper too, but running turn 1 LD alongside 4 Black Vise seems pretty awesome and that is the only format you can do it in.

Strip Mine counts as an uncommon in peasant FYI, so no 4x Vise 4x Strip mine allowed.

[Megadeus]

Thinking...

Ok, so you're confirming my words that manadenial drives ppl away from game and that WotC might dislike it?

If you are posting in this forum it is assumed that you play legacy. If you play legacy and hate mana denial, then I'm not sure how you enjoy legacy.

[FTW]

Strip Mine counts as an uncommon in peasant FYI, so no 4x Vise 4x Strip mine allowed.

Huh? "Decks may include four Strip Mines as commons because one of those cards was "Common 1" -- counted as common in Peasant Magic -- in Antiquities. " from the creator of Peasant format: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...com/feature/58

EDIT: Nevermind, I found an updated site on Peasant Magic and apparently Mana Drain is banned and Strip Mine is errata'd to be uncommon. Oh well. Dammit, why can't Wizards make a format where I can play 4 Strip Mine 4 Black Vise please and thank you.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you are posting in this forum it is assumed that you play legacy. If you play legacy and hate mana denial, then I'm not sure how you enjoy legacy.

Your logic is so flawed that I don't even know where to start. The only thing where you weren't wrong is that I play Legacy. But from that on, it's like reading an alien spaceship's manual.

[mcfarland]

Your logic is so flawed that I don't even know where to start. The only thing where you weren't wrong is that I play Legacy. But from that on, it's like reading an alien spaceship's manual.

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Generally, people playing Legacy derive their fun by hitting as hard as they can, and being hit as hard as their opponents can swing - not by casting their pretty six-drop.

[Hardcore]

You mean I don't automatically win by playing Shivan Dragon? Darn...

[FTW]

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Generally, people playing Legacy derive their fun by hitting as hard as they can, and being hit as hard as their opponents can swing - not by casting their pretty six-drop.

You made Exalted Angel cry. Don't worry honey, you're still pretty no matter how old you get.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Generally, people playing Legacy derive their fun by hitting as hard as they can, and being hit as hard as their opponents can swing - not by casting their pretty six-drop.

That's why I wrote that WotC's concern with LD is that they lose the casual/EDH crowd. Legacy ain't the whole MtG...

From what are my experiences with casuals, they're a band of whiners, and what makes them whine the most is discard/LD/lock in no particular order (or better said: whichever resource denial you use). WotC don't wanna lose those people and I quite do understand them; after all, they print their own money so they need to take these things into considerations.

As a both ex-casual and soon-to-be-ex-Legacier, I played all kinds of resource denial from my very first Forest_Elf_Thermokarts.dec, through Erhnamgeddon to Stax (and I still got my set of Stasis in case something happens) and any StifleWasteGG pile, so I really don't have trouble to understand that LD is a part of game. Hey, I even was a guy who played Global Ruin (go search it) in 7th Ed. - LRW Extended Madness Zoo!
Otoh, I do understand that many ppl dislike to play against LD, (maybe because in fact they don't technically play, but just stare hopelessly, while their opponent tries to kill them with a 2/1 firststriker and a 1/3 flyer). ANT at least kills fast and if you don't have any answers it still isn't that painful as having all the things possible, but been unable to play them. Also - combo is quite hard to play, while slamming Stone Rain after Stone Rain is not that mentally requiring.
I shelved Stax on the same day I sold my Sol lands (quite obv.), but I sold them not because I'm a gentlemen who can't withstand torturing his opponents, but because LD sucks. In a format where there are 15/15s for 2U, I find little pleasure in twiddling around with Waste+CoW, etc. Generally, I derive my fun by hitting as hard as I can, and being hit as hard as my opponents can swing - not by casting some or sorcery that does nothing.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Well I don't think LD really is a dead strategy. There are quite some effective loam control versions popping up from time to time.
And there are so many combinations of unusual choices for LD focused Pox decs that are not fully explored imho:
Green for Life from the Loam+Abrupt Decay, Red for Devastating Dreams+Burning Wish, Blue for Brainstorm+Stifle+Shadow of Doubt.
Maybe try it with a combination of Mox Diamond+Ancient Tomb+City of Traitors+Trinisphere+Chalice of the Void+Tangle Wire+moar LD. Or combine Loam based strategies with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth+Maze of Ith or Rishadan Port.
There are just so many different things to do between aggro loam, pox and 43 lands, maybe some of them work well in the current meta.

Footnote: Please don't pick any specific card and say "but that card sucks", I was merely pointing at the horrendous amount of combinations possible and probably not fully explored.

[Lord Seth]

The point he was making is that Legacy is a competitive format, and mana denial is a viable part of it.

Yes, mana denial is part of Legacy, but it's generally only a secondary focus of the deck. Merfolk plays 4x Wasteland, but it's not out to keep its opponents permanently off land, it just wants to disrupt them long enough to quickly force through a win, and this is true in general about Legacy decks that play Wasteland and similar cards. There's a big difference between a deck that happens to have some land destruction in it and a deck that has land destruction as its principal focus, and decks that fall into the latter group are generally Tier 2 at best.

[TsumiBand]

That's why I wrote that WotC's concern with LD is that they lose the casual/EDH crowd. Legacy ain't the whole MtG...

So the thing about casual / EDH players is that they have their own unique banlists. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the same people that play casually and cry foul when their opponents blow up lands institute house rules about cards / effects they hate. If those guys are the ones complaining about OP cards preventing them from taking their 72-card decks to FNM, that's wanting it both ways. "Not only do I *hate* playing against counterspells, I *demand* you cease printing them, because fucking KEENAN won't stop bringing them to my house every other Saturday for Game Night unless YOU GUYS QUIT MAKING THEM"