What do you think about this list?
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
That's a RUG delver with B splash for Shaman and Decay. Decay is an extremelly overpowered card that can kills tarmogoyfs (which classic RUG delver has trouble do handle), besides Liliana, equipments, sylvan library, chalice for 1, etc. The list keeps the Tempo idea, with a great control of the early game with Daze, Stifle, FoW, Pierce and Wastelands. Bolt can handle small creatures and finish the game, removing the last points of opponent's life. I don't need to comment about the importance of BS and Ponder, the best cantrips in the format. With 12 creature slots available, Delver increases the clock, which is the best possible creature to use against Combo decks, Tarmogoyf is excelent against Aggro decks (the best creature of Legacy, imo), and I decided to use Deathrite Shaman to complete the last 4 slots available. It's just better than mangoose, it rules dredge decks, you can use it to gain life against burn decks, it keeps the damage pressure, even in situations where you can't atack or need to keep your goyf for blocking, pretty good creature against control decks. This deck don't need more than 18 lands, the majority of the cards are curve 1, besides the Shaman can be used for mana, increasing the control of the early game (turn 1 shaman, turn 2 tarmogoyf plus spell pierce backup, for example).
I think this list is pretty much overpowered, using the 3 best creatures in Legacy, plus 28 non-spell creatures to control the early game board and increases the chance of delver flipping, even without cantrip help.
Kamus
Legacy Decks: Grixis Delver, Canadian Threshold, Patriot, UR Delver, Team America, Shardless BUG, Junk, Miracles, Jeskai Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Deathblade, Bant, Grixis Control, ANT, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Infect, Food Chain
Modern Decks: Infect, UR Delver, Grixis Delver, Jeskai Geist, Jund, Abzan, Blue Moon, Grixis Control, Esper Control, RUG Control, BUG Control, Jeskai Nahiri
@DemolitionColorScheme
I've just pick up the deck, and did't have much time testing it, however my main is exactly the same as your Pyromancer-free list (this list is almost the same as Official bUrg.dec). My sideboard:
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Bitterblossom
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
Also nothing newI'm a little worried it's a bit gravehate-light, but I hope main DRS are enough.
As for Fire Covenant vs Toxic Deluge: the latter is easier to cast, requires less life, does not target, but it's a sorcery and it wipes your board as well...
Hahaha are you trolling Kamus ? You talk like you've just discovered something. Thanks to you, I know that Shaman can gain me life. I laughed so hard. This thread...Originally Posted by Kamus
That's cool to see! I guess our thought process behind the maindeck and the board are pretty similar. I like that.@DemolitionColorScheme
I've just pick up the deck, and did't have much time testing it, however my main is exactly the same as your Pyromancer-free list (this list is almost the same as Official bUrg.dec). My sideboard:
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Bitterblossom
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
Also nothing new
As for Fire Covenant vs Toxic Deluge: the latter is easier to cast, requires less life, does not target, but it's a sorcery and it wipes your board as well...
I think the few flex slots and the SB choices are so hard for this particular build, really. We have so much options, but simply not enough space to fit them all in, haha.
I'm still fiddling around with the SB as well, I run 1 Grafdigger's Cage and 1 Surgical Extraction for extra GY hate. The Cage helps vs GSZ/Elves/Reanimator and ANT/TES. The Surgical is good in various match ups, like ANT/TES, G/B Pox, Lands (Punishing Fire, Loam), JUND (Punishing Fire and Loam once more), etc. It's a tool that I just like to have as a one off. It sometimes helps in the Delver mirrors as well. Extracting Goyfs, Underground Seas (vs BUG Delver), Tropicals, their Loam, you name it, although it's rare that I side it in vs the Delver decks. I have done so in the past and it does feel like a ridiculous cheap win, haha. Surgical also works just as well vs Dredge; responding to the Narcomoeba trigger, etc.
I am debating cutting the one Grim Lavamancer. It doesn't jive with the Goyfs, DRS and Geese and I often don't board it in. We already have 2 Decay and 4 Bolts, alongside a couple of (soft) sweepers and semi-removal in the form of Submerge. Besides, Red is basically just a small splash for us and it's the last one I often fetch for, which makes it even less of a good choice. So, I think it doesn't really fit in this list, but I might be wrong. Sylvan Library has been overperforming, as always. It's an all-star vs Miracles and control decks and it feels like a must-include in the SB. Vendilion Clique; same thing, but its application is broader and can come in vs. a lot of match-ups. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver has been a total dud for me, honestly. I think it might even be borderline bad. It doesn't protect him/herself when it comes into play and its effect is too RNG-y for my taste. I'm probably not ever going to run this. Bitterblossoms has been interesting enough, but I haven't made up my mind about it just yet. It's good vs Miracles and can be good in midrange matchups like BUG Delver/Team America; chump blocking Goyfs, Tombstalker and Delver is interesting and at times, due to the evasion, it gives us extra reach. The one major downside is that it's a Enchantment and a Tribal. While it does grow my 2 Goyfs, it does suck hard when you don't have a Goyf out and the opponent does, Abrupt Decay's it and has a 6/7 Goyf on the table! This alone might not make it boardable vs BUG Delver, unless I convert to a 3 / 4 Goyf build (I currently don't own 3 or 4 Goyfs, sadly). I haven't been able to truly test Fire Covenant, because I'm still in the playtesting phase and haven't brought it out yet to tournaments. I don't doubt it's good vs tribal, like Elves and Merfolk, but I'm not sure if it's good vs Goyf lists. This is one slot I'm really doubting as well. I might consider going for 2 Golgari Charms for it instead because it has a broader range of applications; thrashing Counterbalance, Bloodmoon, Sneak Attack, etc. or regenerating our creatures in the face of Supreme Verdict / Abrupt Decay / Bolt. It's also one mana cheaper and doesn't require us to specifically fetch for Red or use our DRS to get some Red. Our meta is pretty combo light, so I haven't felt the need to add Flusterstorm to my sideboard. Our match up vs ANT/TES is already great with us having access to Stifle, Pierce, Spell Snare, FoW, Daze and, let's not forget; DRS. In other match ups I wish that Flusterstorm was a Spell Spierce so I could just counter that Liliana ...
So, here's the old and much talked about debate;
- 3 Tropical Island vs 1 Taiga and 2 Tropicals
I felt the clunkiness of the one Taiga, even in opening hands with a Delver and Daze. I know, it's just being unlucky, but it does show me the weakness of the one Taiga. I feel, in a list that runs so much blue (especially with the flex spots being occupied by Spell Snare and Spell Pierce) and us running Dazes, we can't really afford the Taiga. It's kinda handy in the Miracles match up where you board in the Pyroblasts, but in the other match ups, it felt clunky and often unwanted. What are your guys' take on this? I'm seriously considering dropping the 1 Taiga for an extra Tropical, but I'm really still not sure.
The debate about cutting Taiga is really coming up every now and then but it is a important question. To me it is just a question of chances. How often will you lose a game because you had no Tropical instead of Taiga and how often will you lose because you cant play on just 2 lands?
I think it is possible to play without Taiga but then i would not play any Abrupt Decays or Golgari Charms. On the other hand those cards a very powerful in some MUs and can turn the match enormously.
Sure Taiga is the worst card in the deck but i like to play those BG cards, so i take the risk of getting screwed some small percentage of the time because of it.
Maybe it's just the nature of the beast (the beast being BURG Delver, ha) that the flex-dual can be awkward at times. The same goes for BUG Delver, where the 1 Tropical is less desirable due to the need for BB, but it's better in that list, because it enables Daze, softcounters, Delvers, DRS, cantrips and can still help you cast Goyf and Abrupt Decay if you have an Underground Sea. In our case the Taiga does enable us to run off of just an Underground Sea and the single Taiga, but it depends on the hand, of course. I feel it's just so important to keep blue up, but I need to be cantripping as well. Keeping Taiga open doesn't do jack and can only be used to cast threats (DRS/Goose/Goyf) or Abrupt Decay, Bolt; i.e. removal. It's something that needs to be weighed. I like it early vs decks that don't run Wasteland, so I can feel safe having just a Sea, Tropical and Taiga, but in Wasteland matches or mirrors, that Taiga can be backbreaking, because I need to be able to Stifle aggressively and defensively; the scenario changes dramatically when we have an active DRS out and he is the glue that holds the deck together. I wish I could run 4 like I did in 4-Color Delver. I sometimes even doubt the 3 Mongeese. I know, blasphemy! I feel it's the weakest threat in the deck, even though it's the most resilient threat we have, next to TNN. I just loathe the Goose / Goyf stare-down, haha.
This deck wants to remain reactive (stifle snare pierce and no tourach etc like bug). Therefore you can't be really functional with 1 taiga and 1 blue dual (unlike bug that is with bayou usea) : you need 2 blue duals. I wouldn't play a non blue dual in a 18 land tempo deck with stifle. Playing a third tropical means that you're afraid of Wasteland. If you're a real tempo player and have balls, you just put there the 8th fetch (after all you play drs and stifle to protect your manabase).
And this is the problem of burg tempo : you can't play all your spells with only 2 blue duals. That's why I went to a bit more midrandgy version with 4c NLT.
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
It stands for 4 colour Next Level Threshold. I posted my list on the last page.
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
I think we are overreacting here a bit. I mean we only fetch Taiga if we need to( which is only about every 8+ match in my experience). And if we really fear to get destroyed by wasteland after, we should consider to rather get a blue dual and have 1 or 2 dead cards in hand for now( which can be shuffled away or you just find another fetchland later, we play 8 cantrips after all).
I also dont see how 4c NLT solves that problem any better. It just plays more lands so you more often draw into fetchlands. But more lands and higher manacosts for stuff means less tempo advantages, which lead to an entire different deck, which has advantages and disadvantages in other MUs that burg Delver doesnt have.
Ah, of course. I found the NLT thread on here and your post as well:
I like the cheekiness of the concept, having a RUG or 4C list trying to resolve Jace, but this list and the whole NLT concept looks kinda ... undefined for me. I looked at the thread and the decklists vary highly; it seems to lack ... direction? At first glance, that is. I'm not one to dismiss anything too quickly, but this list just seems weird to me. Stifle and Bolt, for me, are tempo cards and they therefore shine in a tempo list. I don't really see the value having them in this list. Tempo decks can abuse that small window to apply pressure and take away the game from there. It's that initial window, the early game and the start of the mid game where Stifle does its work best of all.
Also, you said running Taiga is bad, but why are you running it, if I may ask? I looks even worse in your list with 3 Clique, 2 Jace, Counterspell - cards which all need UU. Granted, you do run 20 lands, so maybe it's slightly less problematic for you due to that reason.
Don't get me wrong, the NLT concept looks interesting, for sure, but I think I'll stick with a tempo shell.
Yes the NLT thread has become a RUG Control Thread. NLT has a very particular strategy : every list runs 4 stifle and 2 Jace. To sum it up, you gain early Tempo to control your opponent : a pure Tempo deck uses the mana you gain over your opponent with daze (this can be avoided though), NLT uses it to ramp into midrange tools like Jace, Clique and Tarmo.
Stifle, Bolt, Snare are there to control the early game to enter midgame with an advantage, with your threats protected by Clique. If you play drs + stifle in a pure tempo deck, you get 2 damage through (if you didn't use usea), if you play Drs + Stifle in NLT, you get Jace on the table virtually on turn 2.
Here you need 4 lands in play and you don't have daze, so a non blue dual is nice to protect our lands from wasteland (i chose taiga because I can play more spells with it, but it is maybe not the best choice, or mb -1 fetch -1 taiga +1 trop +1 badlands, because we play 4 shaman). It is not the case of a pure Tempo deck, which should normally need only 2 lands to be functional, these 2 lands producing blue.
What I'm trying to say is : if I wanted to play Tempo, I would play Rug, if I wanted to play Burg (because it rocks:)), I would play NLT.
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
You just explain what the decks do but nothing about the advantages NLT should have.
I think that is a very corner case example. Shaman should not be attacking in the first few turns anyway to represent answers. Also active Deathrite Shaman + dropped threat and maybe counterbackup or more mana disruption should be equally destructive while coming up a lot more than the Jace on Turn 2.
That argument doesnt really make sense to me. Could you explain in detail how a deck that works on 3 or more lands should be a better Stifle deck than a deck which can work on 2 lands just fine for just about the same cards except it has cheaper threats? Otherwise i am pretty much on all that DemolitionColorScheme said.
But ... isn't BURG Tempo basically just on the exact gameplan as RUG? The difference between RUG and BURG is that BURG is trying to implement more utility for stuff that cripples RUG (especially G1). It's slightly less streamlined than RUG, but has more outs and can swing boardstates better than RUG can; it's what makes the BURG concept interesting for me, personally.
The NLT concept of having Stifles and Bolts to make way for the midgame seems counterintuitive to me, since NLT isn't optimising that window I talked about; it's just trying to prolong the early game while you reach the midgame / endgame so you can resolve Jace, a Goyf or one of 3 Cliques (I feel 3 Cliques is way too much mainboard, by the way). The whole Tempo / Stifle idea is to pump out one or two cheap early threats, dig for permision and hold that early game state so you can ride it to victory; you're pressuring them to find an answer to that boardstate, crippling them in developing their own. I fear that having Stifle in NLT isn't really optimising the use of it and will end up as dead draws most of the time because you're simply, once again, not really making use of the window Stifle opens.
And I agree with this, especially vs BUG Delver. If I have a turn 1 Shaman out, it's never attacking. It's staying untapped if I don't have to use it right there, even if it's just for Daze-bluffs in their turns or EoT eating their fetchland/Wasted Dual (if I don't have B or G open for draining/gaining, that is), minimizing their own DRS-food and making the likelyhood of them dropping Tombstalker smaller and smaller. Same goes for the mirror or RUG Delver, to keep them off of Threshold. I even do this when DRS gets Bolted/whatever, even if I have nothing to do with the mana, I will just eat a fetch/land. It might sound insignificant, but it's something I've thought myself during the years and has won me games now and then.
A lot of people seem to not understand that simple concept though but once you get it most things should explain themself.
Couldnt agree more. Great disscusion.
About Burg/RUG :
Lol. This is what I'm trying to explain from the beginning. Burg Tempo is worse than RUG because you need 3 mana sources to play all your spells. That's why I said that i would play Rug if I wanted to play Tempo.But ... isn't BURG Tempo basically just on the exact gameplan as RUG? The difference between RUG and BURG is that BURG is trying to implement more utility for stuff that cripples RUG (especially G1). It's slightly less streamlined than RUG, but has more outs and can swing boardstates better than RUG can; it's what makes the BURG concept interesting for me, personally.
To keep a Tempo deck, but a bit more midrange, you can remove the stifles, like sawatarix did (previous page) and follow a bug gameplan, but this is risky (stifle also protects the manabase). I would also play Goyf instead of mongoose in this case.
Okay you have drs + 2 lands in play. I'm the control player. I land go. You dealt 2 damage. I agree that the match up vs Rug is good because you have Stifle + Drs, that is to say, more mana than you need (and you always need mana vs rug).Shaman should not be attacking in the first few turns anyway to represent answers. Also active Deathrite Shaman + dropped threat and maybe counterbackup or more mana disruption should be equally destructive while coming up a lot more than the Jace on Turn 2.
You never tried Jace turn 2. Instant win (even vs elves).
About NLT :
That's a legitimate observation. Stifle gives you 1 turn ahead. In pure Tempo decks, this means :1 more hit by my creatures. In NLT it can mean that (it's less efficient in this sense though) but it also and especially means : I get 1 mana ahead of my opponent. This is crucial in Control mirrors. The Window is the same in time, the usage is just different.I fear that having Stifle in NLT isn't really optimising the use of it and will end up as dead draws most of the time because you're simply, once again, not really making use of the window Stifle opens.
It is more logical to play NLT if you want to play 4 colours, because of the mana configuration, because of Deathrite Shaman that is more of a control tool. Then, it's hard to answer the question, is NLT better than its Tempo twin ? It depends on the metagame. NLT does generally better against Control decks. It remains a 50/50 deck.Could you explain in detail how a deck that works on 3 or more lands should be a better Stifle deck than a deck which can work on 2 lands just fine for just about the same cards except it has cheaper threats?
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
This is an interesting point, but getting 1 mana ahead of your opponent seems less relevant when your spells inherently cost more to cast. Part of the power of Tempo Thresh (RUG or bUrg) is that you can trade resources and get ahead 1 mana with Stifle, but actually threaten to kill them with that difference in mana. In NLT, if you're 1 mana ahead - say, you're on two mana and they're stuck on one because of your Wastelands/Stifles - you still can't cast many of your threats, so you don't get to capitalize on being ahead until 1-2 turns later. Obviously there are always critical turns in games of Magic where one mana makes the difference, but I'm just having difficulty seeing this happen enough in NLT to justify Stifle.
I didn't know what to play last week and I saw your post and had a chance to sleeve the deck up for my local weekly.
Here's how it went:
Match 1 vs American Delver
2-0 I suspect some inexperience from my opponent lead to a fairly easy victory. Having 4 stifle and wasteland mean I was the control. Game 2 my opponent kept on tundra wasteland, and fell quickly my wastelands and sylvan.
Match 2 vs Show and Tell
2-1 Lost game one, won game 2 when my opponent kept on ancient tomb... Game 3 I played masterfully allowing my opponent to resolve a turn 2 show and tell to Emmy allowing me to drop a 2nd land into play to accompany my drs and turn 1 land. Turn 2 I untap, drop land 3, tap for 3 play Liliana. Opponent FOW's I respond with REB. Lily resolves, Emmy gets sacked. My opponent is down to one card. Clique after my next untap reveals gris and a land. I tuck gris. Lilly, Clique and DRS get the job done in 4 turns, while I clutch a Krosan grip.
Match 3 vs Dredge.
I lose this one, I probably could have played better. Evaluated threats incorrectly
Match 4 vs DnT
I lose this one in 2. Their mana denial plan with vial + equipment was effective at shutting me down.
2-1
I did enjoy playing the list. I admit I wish I could have SB'd some delvers into the list when I faced Dnt and Dredge. I think I would like to try 2 stifle more a defensive plan to wasteland rather than run 4 as a denial plan, because of the absence of daze. I would try 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce. The Jace fateseal plan them off lands never came up for me.
Posting from phone...excuse me :)
Thinking of switching from bug to burg for my local. I like this list. Has anyone played it or want to give me suggestions? I play 4 stifles in bug so I know I'm unique as it is.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
This is exactly the same list I posted before. O think this should be great
Kamus
Legacy Decks: Grixis Delver, Canadian Threshold, Patriot, UR Delver, Team America, Shardless BUG, Junk, Miracles, Jeskai Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Deathblade, Bant, Grixis Control, ANT, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Infect, Food Chain
Modern Decks: Infect, UR Delver, Grixis Delver, Jeskai Geist, Jund, Abzan, Blue Moon, Grixis Control, Esper Control, RUG Control, BUG Control, Jeskai Nahiri
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