[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Qweerios]

I think the best way for us to beat Grixis is to play Goyfs/Gurmag, quality cheap removal (Bolt, Push, Dismember), and to make land drops consistently (20 lands). Team America is a good example of a strong Delver deck against other Delver decks because it plays the biggest, fastest and most resillient vanilla creatures combined with some of the best removal and just enough grind to take control of most aggro and midrange matchups.

Czech Pile and Miracles are definitely some of the top decks to beat in my meta as the other DtB aren't as consistently at the top tables (DnT, Eldrazi, SnT, Storm, various Delvers). I want to be playing some number of trump cards against these control decks pre-board. Playing only vanilla creatures that all get removed by Strix, Push, Sword and Snap leaves me open to get Jaced out...TNN is crucial at forcing a wrath effect and pressuring PWs. Playing a Sylvan Library mainboard has a huge impact as well since they won't likely have enough answers pre-board.

I've been playing around with various threat, spell, and land configurations over the past year and gathered a lot of data on 4c and Tribal Flames variants. 4c is the deck I played the most and so had consistent top finishes with but TF is the deck that had the best results despite varying wildly in configuration. TF is amazing against every troublesome aggro deck and has more game against control G1.

Here is my current 4c Delver list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarters
1 Barbarian Ring


I dropped Leo for Preordain and that's probably the only flex slot in the main for me. Preordain works better with the rest of the deck (1 mana cantrip for mana fixing, threshold for Mongoose, Sorcery for Goyf). Leo is clunky given 2 TNN and a GSZ already.

If anyone is interrested in developping Tribal Flames I actually have a long, nearly complete primer with compiled data from playtesting, weeklies and tournaments.

[blablub]

Well, i will give your apporaches a try although i'm not sure about cutting Stifle. It seems like no one expect it out of a delver deck anymore. I will start with Sean Brown' list with the 2/2/2 Snare/Pierce/Whisper Splilt and 3/2 Goyf/Angler

Qweerios im really interested in your Tribal-Flames deck. You might share your Primer?

[Stevestamopz]

Stifle is not as good right now because everyone is too proactive and this deck cannot operate like Canadian does.

I talked with Sean about his take on my BURG list and I told him that he was making it too Canadian with the Snares and the construction of his sideboard. The deck needs the ability to be able to grind with the fair-decks post board and you have to go a bit Jundy with it in my experience. Sean did post-fact talk about adding 2 True-Names over the slots that I have dedicated to the two Lilianas to be able to push through the fair decks but I think the Liliana's are just higher impact cards across the board.

Anyway, I 4-0'd again tonight with the list I posted earlier.

Rd 1: ANT 2-1
Rd 2: UB Reanimator 2-1
Rd 3: Infect 2-1
Rd 4: Merfolk (yes!) 2-1.

Obviously running hot but the deck feels really insane. I haven't missed TNN at all.

[blablub]

jeah, i've mentioned this before. i feel your thought process is not complete or something like this :D (no offense, dont know how to describe it otherwise :D)

You want to play a Delver-Deck which goes "jundy" and say that's why Snares don't fit. Ok, i get it, because is reactive card, but play pierces instead which are much weaker without the complete Tempo-Plan? Snare would be better even in your list, because it counters the most fearsome card for a deck which cant go wide or have True-Name -->fuckin Baleful Strix (ohh man i hate it so much!!) thats why i said earlier cut all the 1-Mana Counterspells,

maybe two years ago HJ-Goddik played something similiar in the BoM super-finals. I cant find the List anymore but it was something like:

19 Land
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Delver
16 Blue Cards
2 Snapcaster
2 Painful Truth
1 Loam
1 Library
4 Bolt
3 Decay

don't know the Sideboard sorry

While i really like your Approach, don't get me wrong and i think this is the way to go in my meta right now because there isn't a lot of Storm and Sneak/Show (in MY meta!!), i think you are not consequent enough. just my thoughts, please don't be offended

[Qweerios]

Stifle is not as good right now because everyone is too proactive and this deck cannot operate like Canadian does.

I talked with Sean about his take on my BURG list and I told him that he was making it too Canadian with the Snares and the construction of his sideboard. The deck needs the ability to be able to grind with the fair-decks post board and you have to go a bit Jundy with it in my experience. Sean did post-fact talk about adding 2 True-Names over the slots that I have dedicated to the two Lilianas to be able to push through the fair decks but I think the Liliana's are just higher impact cards across the board.

Anyway, I 4-0'd again tonight with the list I posted earlier.

Rd 1: ANT 2-1
Rd 2: UB Reanimator 2-1
Rd 3: Infect 2-1
Rd 4: Merfolk (yes!) 2-1.

Obviously running hot but the deck feels really insane. I haven't missed TNN at all.

Good to see you are having success! I second your comment about Stifle as I believe the card is a wasted slot.
You have to face Strix control or StP + Snap decks to appreciate TNN. According to your last 2 runs, TNN does look unecessary.

[Qweerios]

Well, i will give your apporaches a try although i'm not sure about cutting Stifle. It seems like no one expect it out of a delver deck anymore. I will start with Sean Brown' list with the 2/2/2 Snare/Pierce/Whisper Splilt and 3/2 Goyf/Angler

Qweerios im really interested in your Tribal-Flames deck. You might share your Primer?

I will post the primer today in the New n Dev section.

[Stevestamopz]

jeah, i've mentioned this before. i feel your thought process is not complete or something like this :D (no offense, dont know how to describe it otherwise :D)

You want to play a Delver-Deck which goes "jundy" and say that's why Snares don't fit. Ok, i get it, because is reactive card, but play pierces instead which are much weaker without the complete Tempo-Plan? Snare would be better even in your list, because it counters the most fearsome card for a deck which cant go wide or have True-Name -->fuckin Baleful Strix (ohh man i hate it so much!!) thats why i said earlier cut all the 1-Mana Counterspells,

While i really like your Approach, don't get me wrong and i think this is the way to go in my meta right now because there isn't a lot of Storm and Sneak/Show (in MY meta!!), i think you are not consequent enough. just my thoughts, please don't be offended

It's hard to be offended when I don't really follow what you are saying lol. I am playing a Delver deck that is just full of the best cards possible (Seal of Fire excepted). I am not trying to be a Jund deck in Game 1, I am playing an aggro-control deck that has the best chance of beating anything Game 1.

I haven't had the misfortune of having to play against Czech Pile in the last 2 weeklies I've played in, granted. I have however beat the Pile both online and in paper against one of the better local players with this list - no TNN needed, no Bitterblossom needed. Just pressure them early, draw cards, and ride the X/1 sweepers (another reason I'm not playing TNN) and Planeswalkers to victory. Goyf is fantastic because of the pressure it puts on the opponent, and it's almost always a 5/6 or a 6/7 against Pile.

Postboard the deck focus' it's plan and can either play Control or Beatdown. DnT really struggles against recurring sources of card-advantage like the Planeswalkers and obviously cards like Deluge are insane. This is where Sean and I differ on approaches. Last fortnight I beat 4c Loam + DnT 2-0; matchups where TNN is supposed to shine. Yesterday I beat Merfolk which is also supposed to be a bad matchup because of my Jund plan postboard against fair decks. TNN is a crutch that too many people rely on IMO and is just horrendously slow.

The philosophy behind the deck's construction couldn't be more consistent IMO.

[Stevestamopz]

Took the deck to the semis of a 25ish player sanctioned today where I got shit on by some insane Canadian thresh draws.

Rd1: UR Delver 1-2
Rd2: Merfolk 2-1
Rd3: Team Australia 2-1 (Grixis Delver with Stalker/Stifle/TNN)
Rd4: BUG Leo/TNN 2-0
Rd5: ID
Top 8: ANT 2-0
Top 4: Canadian Thresh 0-2.
Game 1 I started with 2 fetchlands and a wasteland and ended up with 0 without ever getting a colour producing land and game 2 my 5/6 goyf got dismembered and bolted, 2 drs' also got bolted and then my opponent went Tnn into Tnn while I looked at the Polluted Delta in my hand. #justcanadianthings i suppose.

My list continues to perform and I was playing at about 10% capacity the entire day: I went for a hard run the night before and did a very heavy weightlifting session the morning of. I made an error in not bringing in a pyroblast (unintentional error) and I think I should have brought in at least 1 Deluge against RUG but doubted I would ever be able to resolve it. Thoughts?

[Qweerios]

@Steve

Grats on the good results!

Sometimes the power of Delver is unstoppable. I think your list is fine against RUG and they managed to get under you before your 4th color advantage could kick in. That's nearly the only way RUG beats us... Deluge isn't so hot in that matchup, it all depends on what you have to take out for it and what version of RUG they are playing. I would take out 2-4 Bolts, 2 Pierce and 2 Forces here as well as every "pay life draw cards".

[blablub]

Steve i will give your list a shot,
do you mind explaining your boardingplan against Pile and Grixis Delver? would be really appreciated :)

Or do you changed anything?

[Stevestamopz]

Heyo, hope you have some success with it.


Against Pile.

-3 Force, -3 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Liliana of the Veil

Against Grixis
-4 Force, -4 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Fluster + 1 Edict, +2 Pyro, +1 Liliana the Last Hope

I really have no idea though, that could be completely wrong. Maybe Dazes + Forces should stay in so that you can slam Deluge with protection? Qweerios usually has much better sbing plans than I do haha.

Check out these sweet boardstates from my last tournament

Against the Delver mirror:


Against Merfolk:

[Qweerios]

Heyo, hope you have some success with it.


Against Pile.

-3 Force, -3 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Liliana of the Veil

Against Grixis
-4 Force, -4 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Fluster + 1 Edict, +2 Pyro, +1 Liliana the Last Hope

I really have no idea though, that could be completely wrong. Maybe Dazes + Forces should stay in so that you can slam Deluge with protection? Qweerios usually has much better sbing plans than I do haha.

Check out these sweet boardstates from my last tournament

Against the Delver mirror:


Against Merfolk:

Against Pile I keep 4 Daze on the play and 3 on the draw and side out all FoW. Daze is really good in this matchup because their haymakers are high on curve and they are vulnerable to Wasteland.

Against Grixis I keep 4 Daze on the play and draw and 1-2 FoW on the play and draw as well depending on the cards I have to bring in. Most Delver Matchups are determined by early ressource denial and being on the draw is a huge handicap that a FoW can pull you through. Daze is always relevant in this matchup.

[Stevestamopz]

@qweerios - what would you sub in and out exactly?

Did any burg-bros make it out to Seattle today? If so, any results?

[theMonster]

Did any burg-bros make it out to Seattle today? If so, any results?

Didn't get to Seattle, unfortunately, but I've been testing a fair bit of 4C Delver and 4-0d FNM last night, beating a strange gauntlet of Maverick, Pox, Bomberman, and a very cool UW Standstill deck with Terminus. Here's what I played:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker

1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Chart a Course
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Countersquall
2 Pyroblast
1 Sylvan Library
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
1 True-Name Nemesis

The list felt great. I had no mana problems in any matches. I'm still unsure what the optimal threat suite is for these 4C Delver decks, but I found this one to be pretty effective. I considered playing a second Tombstalker over either the third Goyf or the Lili but then decided that the Lili fulfills a lot of roles in this deck: weenie killer, creature recursion, a game-ending ultimate that fights on an axis that's resilient to removal. It performed well all night.

Chart a Course has been consistently pretty good. I like that it's blue and doesn't cost life. Even if you have to discard, it's not that bad, as you can fuel your Tombstalker or pitch dead cards like Daze or Pierce. I haven't had to discard with it so far. Spell Snare was something I dusted off and found it to be pretty good. This is definitely a flex slot, but I got to counter an escalated Collective Brutality and a Snapcaster with it, so it did its job.

The sideboard felt like it had what I wanted, but there is definitely room for customization. Countersquall is a pet card of mine, but I legitimately think it is good against control decks, passable against combo, and better than something like Flusterstorm against Stompy or other decks featuring non-creature permanent-based hate. Since I'm on four black sources, including the Badlands, I've found it easier to hold up than for Counterspell. Your mileage may vary -- Flusterstorm or a third Pierce may be correct, but I've been happy with Countersquall. The third TNN is something I'm not attached to at all, but I liked it. It's another threat against fair decks that's hard to deal with. I wanted to play a Leovold, but my copies are out getting signed. I basically wanted another anti-control card that had broad application elsewhere, and I think the third TNN accomplishes that.

Let me know if you have any questions, and thanks for reading!

[Qweerios]

@Steve

Here's my current 4c list with the SB map. Grixis is at the top. The GQ + Loam plan really messes with Grixis and BUG Delver hard... I took a page out of Team America's SB plan against aggro decks by removing TNN mainboard in favor of Leo and adding Deluge to the SB as a complementary 1-sided wrath alongside Golgari Charm.

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler‎

Spells (26)
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

Sideboard
2 Ghost Quarters ‎
2 Surgical Extraction ‎
2 Flusterstorm ‎
2 Pyroblast ‎
1 Diabolic Edict ‎
1 Ancient Grudge ‎
1 Golgari Charm ‎
1 Toxic Deluge ‎
1 Life from the Loam ‎
1 Sylvan Library ‎
1 Grafdigger's Cage ‎

SB Map

Aggro (8):

Grixis Delver‎
-2 Pierce -4 Force‎
+2 Ghost +2 Pyro +1 Deluge +1 Loam

Team America
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+2 Ghost +1 Edict +1 Deluge +1 Loam +1 Library

UR Delver
-1 Dismember -2 Force -2 Waste
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Edict

DnT
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Charm +1 Loam +1 Deluge +1 Library

Eldrazi
-2 Leo -2 Pierce -1 Force‎
+2 Ghost +1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Deluge‎

Red Stompy
-2 Leo
+1 Grudge +1 Charm‎
‎
Maverick
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Charm +1 Deluge +1 Loam +1 Library

Burn
-1 Dismember -2 Waste
+2 Fluster +1 Edict
‎
Control (4):

Czech Pile‎
-2 Decay -4 Force
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Loam +1 Library‎

Miracles
-1 Dismember -4 Bolt -1 Waste
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Charm +1 Library‎

Loam
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+2 Surgical +1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Loam +1 Library

Lands
-1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt -1 Force‎
+2 Ghost +2 Surgical +1 Edict +1 Loam +1 Library

Combo (6):

Storm
-1 Angler -1 Dismember *-2 Decay -2-4 Bolt -0-2 Goyf
+2 Surgical +2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Charm +1 Cage

SnT
-1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Charm +1 Surgical

BR Reanimator (UB)
-1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt (-2 Decay)
+2 Surgical +2 Fluster +1 Edict +1 Cage (+2 Pyro)

Turbo Depths
-2 Leo -1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt
+2 Ghost +2 Fluster +1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Loam +1 Library‎
‎
Elves
-1 Angler -2 Pierce*
+1 Charm +1 Deluge +1 Cage

Dredge
-2 Leo -1 Gurmag -2 Decay
+2 Surgical +2 Fluster +1 Cage

@theMonster

I think Negate is straight up better than Countersquall.

[Stevestamopz]

Hello friends,

I came 15th at our Eternal Weekend the other week and figured I'd write a report. Happy to discuss the decklist too! Whoever said Golgari Charm in the main was good, you are a godamned genius.

https://thesaltminesite.com/2018/06/...-masters-2018/

[Qweerios]

Gj Steve!

Nice report, I like your writing style! I always enjoy reading your thoughts on 4c Delver since we don't get much content anymore.

My 4c list is very close to yours right now with a couple minor changes (-1 Gurmag for a 3rd Decay, -2 Golgari for 2 Spell Snare and -1 USea for a 3rd Trop).

How do you like the 2nd Gurmag? I tried this exact threat config for a while and ran into GY tension with Goyf or multiple Anglers. I definitely value Gurmag over the 4th Goyf but the second Angler has very diminishing returns given that we already play several fatties and that Gurmag's resistance to removal only shines in a handful of Matchups.

On an unrelated note, I am very satisfied with Spell Snare in the current metagame because it is nearly on par with Pierce in relevance and it's been a while since I've seen that many quality targets for Snare in the top decks.

I am very satisfied with my Aggro and Combo Matchups but I need extra points against Czech and Miracle. My approach has been to have a really strong postboard matchup against control but I find myself lacking 1-2 powerful grind cards. I immediately thought of you and Painful Truths. I'd like to figure out a solid postboard grind plan and I am wondering if Truths, Blossom, Library or Loam Is the way to go. Here is my SB:

2 Baleful Strix
-SB Strix is absolutely amazing at pushing Goyf over Gurmag in the Grixis matchup. I took a page from RUG Delver and looked for a 5th card type that would tip Delver Matchups in my favor.
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
-I play Fluster over TS because I can bring it in against Control and Burn while TS only shines against dedicated Combo decks. Fluster is also much easier to cast.
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
-I just upgraded Grudge to KCommand in order to gain additional grinding power from my 4th Artifact(Chalice) removal slot. Good synergy with Strix too!
1 Dismember
-I originally had Dismember main but I moved it in favor of a 3rd Decay. Dismember is my 5th 1mana removal against aggro and an additional way to get rid of Angler. I absolutely love Dismember in 4c tempo for its flexible cost and high applicability but it is simply too often a liability in too many Matchups to cut the cheese as a preboard card.
1 Grafdigger's Cage
-Probably the narrowest card in the deck but it fills a niche role against Elves, Dredge, Reanimator and the occasional Nic Fit.

My last two slots are my "grind"sots and are currently occupied by Loam and Library. Loam is very good against a myriad of tough Matchups like Lands, Depths, Grixis, Czech, DnT and Loam to name a few but as a "grind" slot doesn't offer anything against Miracles...

Sylvan Library has long been my go-to grind card for al control decks or whenever I adopt the control role as I highly value the Top ability over the course of a long game. Library especially shines against StP based control decks but might not be as impactful as Bitterblossom or Painful Truths. If I am going to play Truths, Library is the most likely candidate to get replaced.

What is your SB plan against Czech and Miracles?

Czech:
-3 Decay -4 Force
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 KCommand +1 Loam +1 Library

Miracles:
-4 Bolt -3 Waste
+2 Strix +2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Library

As you can see I could use another dedicated grind card against Miracles... All of my other Matchups on my SB map are spot on perfect though.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

RIP this deck. Sadly.

[Stevestamopz]

@Qweerios - apologies for not replying, I did not see your message.

The haters will call us crazy, but I'm not giving up on 4 Colour just yet and neither should you! I'm not registering Bomat Courier in my decklist when Goblin Lackey is legal and Team America feels a bit underpowered all things considered.

There are some notable deck-building constraints in this: 3 Wastelands and 3 Lightning Bolts are not typos.

Anyway, this is the day 1 list. In the hopefully mortal words of Bon Jovi, we gotta keep the faith!

//Creature (11)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (22)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (8)
1 Life from the Loam
2 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

//Land (19)
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

[Plague Sliver]

The haters will call us crazy

You cray but I ain't hatin'