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Thread: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

  1. #21

    Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*

    RUG Delver players know their deck and play around Daze. The cards we bring in have a much higher power level than Daze. We take the control role and prepare for the longer game. Daze becomes less effective then. Against the mirror Daze is far less effective as they have Shaman to pay the daze cost. Loam helps versus Wasteland/Stifle and makes up for the loss of mana protection from Daze.

    The fetchlands count is correct. The mana base I presented you is rock solid. We do not need more black sources. We want to operate with two lands. Sorry that I repeat myself but I want to make the message clear ;-).

  2. #22
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    Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*

    Thanks for the New Primer! but the Deck should now finally come in the etablished Decks treath!:)

  3. #23
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    Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*

    You cut forces before dazes. Always.

  4. #24

    Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    You cut forces before dazes. Always.
    if you are on the play, then you are right ;-) But versus Canadian I board out the playset forces so that I need to go to the dazes and cut them. The match plays good with the boarding. Believe me.

  5. #25
    Rob Rogers
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    Re: bUrg Reloaded *New and Official Thread*

    Sweet primer, I can agree with all your assessments. Well almost all... it seems to me the matchups versus AggroLoam and especially LEDDredge seem quite bad. Other than that nice work.
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  6. #26

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Reloaded

    yeah we are now in the established decks' area :-P

    @HammafistRoob: You are right. These matchups are
    around 45 to 55 for them. But bUrg has a better matchup versus them than any other tempo deck. I played versus both of these decks recently in tournaments and did not lose. Compost helps a lot versus Dredge as you have virtually 5 pieces of hate versus them (Compost, Shaman, Nihil Spellbomb). Fire Covenant is nuts versus Aggro Loam.

  7. #27
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Finally nice work Sasan!

    Now the should come to the DtB Treaths:P

    Maybe we see now more bUrg list's in the Top8 in the USA.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    The Badlands over Taiga argument sounds pretty reasonable. I've encountered that situation a few times (Just U. Sea and Taiga both untapped, end of turn I activate DRS to shoot 2.), and I understand that does get us in quite a vulnerable spot.

  9. #29

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    bUrg consists of two main colors: blue and green. Red and black are not so dominant. With that in mind there is no reason to play a dual land - Badlands - that only supports our side colors. You must consider that there are many matchups where you cannot play so much lands and I also gave the advice to play tight with only two lands in play. This whole play style and strategy cannot be reached with Badlands. The deck can afford to be cut from black a few turns - then it will become more or less Canadian Thresh for these turns. But being cut off black and red is a game breaker.

  10. #30
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Sometimes we can Play with 3 lands in Play 1 volcanic 1 Tropical 1 usea because it's a Little bit more controll.

  11. #31
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    bUrg consists of two main colors: blue and green. Red and black are not so dominant. With that in mind there is no reason to play a dual land - Badlands - that only supports our side colors. You must consider that there are many matchups where you cannot play so much lands and I also gave the advice to play tight with only two lands in play. This whole play style and strategy cannot be reached with Badlands. The deck can afford to be cut from black a few turns - then it will become more or less Canadian Thresh for these turns. But being cut off black and red is a game breaker.
    The reasons are as I've stated before. I feel like I've aptly described scenarios of very tight play where Badlands+Trop would be more choice than Taiga + U Sea. Simply saying 'it is not correct' does not articulate the logical decisions behind the choice of Taiga over Badlands. I feel like the fact that Taiga simply casts more spells (only four more truly, since you can cast Abrupt Decay with the configuration of Badlands+Trop or Taiga+U Sea) than badlands Perhaps it is the differences in our build. I run 4 deathrites and 0 goyfs MB, therefore Deathrite must utilized as a threat whenever possible. I run two Spell Pierce, where you run two Goyfs, because my Meta is saturated with a great deal of combo. As well, I like running more disruption anyway. However, the point I'm trying to make is that I do not understand the defenses in your argument for Taiga, so I would simply like to hear of some likely scenarios where your ideal two land configuration is much more desirable than Badlands. As well, if you're worried about getting cut off of removal by being cut off of black and red, having only a Usea in play won't cast abrupt decay or lightning bolt either. I'm going to repost my beliefs from the old thread, so newcomers may read. However, I really would like to hear a well written and articulate response explaining the decisions for Taiga over Badlands. I don't feel that you are aptly describing particular situations in depth, so I am having trouble understanding your perspective on the decision.

    Here is my previous posts from the other thread so newcomers may read:

    "Consider this scenario I've been faced with a couple of times-

    I have U Sea, Taiga, and Deathrite Shaman in play and spell snare in hand. I pass the turn to my opponent- all of my permanents are untapped. My opponent plays Stoneforge mystic- knowing that Batterskull simply spells certain doom for us, I am forced (no pun intended) to spell snare the Stoneforge mystic using my one blue land ( and only black land.) In the aftermath, I'm left with a near useless Deathrite activation at the end of my opponents turn. I essentially 'skipped an attack step with Deathrite.' Which, in both cases, cost me the game while my opponent ends the game resting at one life.

    I've had similar scenarios where I am awkwardly funneled into choosing between activating Deathrite for a relevant two damage, or, knowing my opponent will crack their fetchland when I tap out all blue sources, leaving mana up to stifle a precious fetchland. Tapping out for also allows for a rather opportune moment to kill my delvers/ deathrite itself.

    I also think that if people become attuned to the deck's presence, they might start targeting the only two black lands with their wastelands in order to nearly invalidate one of our creatures."

    "I think you can say that any color is just the splash, really. The most important color is obviously blue. As far as land configuration, I think that volcanic island is the least valuable land out of the blue sources (of course the non blue dual is the worst land overall.) For this reason, I think that having 8 total fetches is best for having a higher probability of being able to choose whatever land you need in tight situations. I also tested the deck with 19 lands for quite some time, but felt that it was somewhat excessive with Deathrite, and I missed the extra counterspell I used to run in RUG. So, I feel that we are forced to sacrifice a dual land slot to patch up tight mana play with a non blue dual.

    I feel that Volcanic is the land with the least value to it, because of it's casting parameters of only allowing one to cast one of the twelve threats in the deck. Whereas tropical island will cast all 12, and Underground sea will cast eight. Being a tempo deck, I feel it is most important to drop a turn one threat. So, I'm assuming that I will rarely ever try to start the game with Volcanic island, and leave it to be used at opportune moments to cast lightning bolts (the only maindecked red spell in the entire maindeck.) So, red is used as mostly a one shot color in order to clear blockers, annoying creatures and steal the final points of damage in the game. I also believe it is the least necessary of all of the colors to have 3 lands devoted to its color of mana. It has very little long term value, whereas green allows you to drop late game Mongeese and late game Deathrites. So, with these parameters, I chose to drop one volcanic island from the list and I originally replaced it with a Taiga. However, I'm beginning to believe Badlands is the better dual. As I said before, I know that Taiga can ultimately cast more spells than badlands, but I feel that Badlands can allow for much tighter play form the scenarios listed above. Taiga possess very little longterm value over badlands other than allowing one to cast top decked Mongeese, while badlands is a very important resource for closing games with Deathrite. I don't believe that the -2 shaman activation is 'cool,' but rather I believe that it is entirely necessary and very important to use at every opportunity given, since we are a tempo deck that is required to close the game out before it falls out of our favor. Mongoose is horrible in the early game, fantastic in the early-midgame, and then loses value once the opponent begins landing goyfs, linger souls tokens, and other blockers. This is where deathrite activations are most important, as they circumvent blocking forces when mongoose loses its value. Black mana turns Deathrite into a threat, and I feel that it is important to have 12 threats and not 8 in the deck.

    In terms of playing very tightly and on only two lands, I strongly feel that opening with a tropical and dropping a badlands second turn can more often be the most efficient play. It grants you the possibility of dropping any of your 12 threats turn one as it allows for activating Deathrite (or bolting creatures during an opponents attack step) while simultaneously holding blue mana up for stifle, brainstorm, and other counterspells. Ending an opponents turn, tapping usea and Deathrite to shave two life from their total, then having them swords to plowshares the Deathrite or your flipped Delver in response hurts a great deal, especially when you're left staring at an untapped taiga in play with a spell pierce in hand. Taiga does not have as much long term value as badlands. Once a mongoose is loose, it requires no mana intensive upkeep. Deathrite does require intensive mana upkeep, in order to remain an important threat. And spell snaring a tarmogoyf or stoneforge mystic with your U sea and ending the turn tapping your taiga for a 2 life gain from Deathrite just does not interact synergistically with BURG's game plan. The two life you could have taken from your opponent that turn is way too valuable. And so is the ability of taking two life every turn while maintaining the ability to counter important threats.

    To me, I feel that black is more integral to closing games, and the configuration of playing efficiently with only two lands in play would best be complimented with Badlands over Taiga, which I hope I conveyed thoroughly through the scenarios described in my previous post."

    And for contextual understanding, here is my current list:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Nimble Mongoose

    Spells 30

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    3 Spell Snare
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Abrupt decay

    Lands 18
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands

    SB

    2 Fire Covenant
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    3 Dures
    2 Tarmogoyf
    Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.

    Nemeses Slain:4

  12. #32
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I was about to write a long thread about how Volcanic is the worst dual, Taiga could cast more spells than Badlands, Badlands was more versatile overall, and how you should play all 8 fetches but I think TheKingslayer beat me to it. I agree with everything mentioned above and I have had those scenarios occur more than once in my experience with burg. My mainboard is the same as him except that I play a 4th Daze over the 3rd Pierce.

    With that said, I have a very different take on how to maximize this deck's sideboard. I think the recently printed Charms have a lot to offer to our sideboard. They are all instant speed, have a low mana cost, and have at least 2 relevant abilities. For starters, I chose to use 2 Rakdos Charms instead of 1 Cage/Spellbomb and 1 Ancient Grudge. This way, I am doubling up on SB GY hate, artifact hate, and I have more relevant abilities against Vial decks. Charm can blow up an early Vial or be used as extra reach on a clogged board or in a losing position. Dimir Charm is another card to consider as it combines Envelop and Disfigure to give you a card that is relevant against tribal, aggro, combo, and especially relevant against decks like Shardless BUG and Elves. It's 3rd ability is also very useful as it enables Threshold, sets up a Delver flip, gives Deathrite some food, or simply keeps your opponent off lands when you have successfully Stifled and Wasted him.

    Here's my bUrg sideboard open to criticism:


    2 Submerge
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Dimir Charm
    2 Rakdos Charm
    2 Fire Covenant
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Life from the Loam
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  13. #33
    Rob Rogers
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    How about playing a Bayou over the Taiga?
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  14. #34

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Concerning the Taiga vs Badlands vs Bayou debate, let us do the maths.

    We assume that we want to be able cast all spells with just two lands. That is an assumption that I consider as a proven and needed fact.

    Then we have three options:

    1. Taiga and Underground Sea,
    2. Badlands and Tropical Island,
    3. Bayou and Volcanic Island. Note: You can only cast decay with a third land.

    With Taiga you can cast all 15 non-blue spells of my list. With Badlands only 9. With Bayou 11. All three duals are bad, as they do not produce blue mana but Taiga is the least bad choice.

    Another well known bUrg player - Florian Koch - writes on Channelfireball concerning his bUrg list the following:

    "The mana base is probably just what you would expect from this deck. Some people have inquired about Taiga, as that one is so bad in RUG Delver. The Taiga can still be annoying, but it is necessary as it’s often critical to have all colors available with just two lands. If you take into account that you want to be able to cast Abrupt Decay with these two lands, then there are just two options. Either you have Taiga in your deck and go for Taiga plus Underground Sea, or you add Badlands and go for Badlands plus Tropical Island. However, the Taiga variant is much more desirable than Badlands as you can cast all 14 non-blue spells with Taiga instead of just 9 with Badlands. Ergo Taiga is a bad land, but Badlands is worse."

    I updated the primer with this debate.

    @TheKingSlayer:

    Now with your list it becomes clear where you are coming from. With 4 Shamans and no Goyfs and more reactive Spells your list urgently needs Shaman as a clock and always blue mana open. I understand your choice of badlands. Badlands can cast more of the non blue Spells in your list than on mine. But respect that with my list Badlands is a bad land :-P ( I love that pun ;-))


    @Qweerios:

    A nice sideboard. As you have covered all my fix slots
    in the SB, just with other cards that do
    the same, it is a viable way to go.

    I have some concerns regarding Dimir
    Charm. The card is too slow as an envelop substitute. Therefore you make the combo matchup weaker. Just play perhaps the flexible Spell Pierce in the slot. The Sylvan Library is sweet and I can see myself perhaps playing it sometimes in the future. But try Compost. In the current meta, it is a Library on crack versus most of
    the decks to beat. Rakdos Charm is sweet, but perhaps a little slow versus gravebased combo decks. Engineered Plague is nice if you have much tribal running around. I like the power level of Submerge so that I think 3 are a must in the meta.

  15. #35

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I have been running the same list Kingslayer (4th daze > 3rd snare.) I currently do not have access to Deltas, only Mistys and Tarns. Should I go with Badlands even though only half of my fetches can get it, or stick with Taiga until I get the Deltas?

    For the sideboard, are you able to reliably get RR for Vortex? Ever consider Divert > Duress? Sulfur Elemental/Dread of Night against DnT and Maverick? Ever want Clique?

    Thanks

  16. #36
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    What is the first land you want to play? I always open or try to open the game with a Tropical Island because it can cast every threat, cantrip, and counterspell in the deck. Tropical is your go-to land on turn 1.

    How do you best complement a Tropical Island if you only have access to 2 lands? Badlands enables all 4 colors with a Tropical Island.

    What is your most mana intensive color after blue? Black is a source of mana that you want to have open at the end of each turn, sometimes even in multiples (AKA: 2 Deathrites).

    @Sasan
    TheKingslayer put forth some very convincing arguments as to why even though Taiga enables the most spells, Badlands is the most needed complementary dual. Instead of restating what we already know and quoting opinions from other bUrg players, I would like to hear arguments from your side as to why we should adopt 2 Volcanics and a Taiga or why we shouldn't play the 8 available fetches.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
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  17. #37

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by David Kaplan View Post
    I have been running the same list Kingslayer (4th daze > 3rd snare.) I currently do not have access to Deltas, only Mistys and Tarns. Should I go with Badlands even though only half of my fetches can get it, or stick with Taiga until I get the Deltas?

    For the sideboard, are you able to reliably get RR for Vortex? Ever consider Divert > Duress? Sulfur Elemental/Dread of Night against DnT and Maverick? Ever want Clique?

    Thanks
    Sorry man you clearly need the Deltas of you want to go the badland route. You want the maximum amount of flexibility. You will even lose some games with your current fetch configuration. Until you get your deltas, please run Taiga.

    RR for Vortex is not a problem as you board it in versus control decks that do not run much Wastelands. Another application is versus Jund. They have Wastelands but need them often for casting their spells. Plus you board in Loam there. This card can get your red sources back.

    Discard Spells are a matter of their own, I will make some points about them in the updated primer soon.

    Divert is not that powerful. Many RUG Delver players tested the card as an out to Decay and were not satisfied. Divert is never there when you need it.

    Sulfur Elemental is inferior to Dread of Night. It is more mana intense and heavily better removable compared to an enchantment.

    Clique is great. It can be boarded versus all control, combo and Pinishing Fire decks.

  18. #38

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    What is the first land you want to play? I always open or try to open the game with a Tropical Island because it can cast every threat, cantrip, and counterspell in the deck. Tropical is your go-to land on turn 1.

    How do you best complement a Tropical Island if you only have access to 2 lands? Badlands enables all 4 colors with a Tropical Island.

    What is your most mana intensive color after blue? Black is a source of mana that you want to have open at the end of each turn, sometimes even in multiples (AKA: 2 Deathrites).

    @Sasan
    TheKingslayer put forth some very convincing arguments as to why even though Taiga enables the most spells, Badlands is the most needed complementary dual. Instead of restating what we already know and quoting opinions from other bUrg players, I would like to hear arguments from your side as to why we should adopt 2 Volcanics and a Taiga or why we shouldn't play the 8 available fetches.
    I try to play an Usea first if I want to open with Shaman or Delver. I never play Mongoose on the first turn. Then I fetch a Taiga and can cast every spell.

    If you go to the Badlands route like Kingslayer your first land has to be Tropical as you need a blue source as soon as possible for your reactive spells and cantrips. The second land should be a Badland.

    Multiple black sources are not that important with 3 Shamans in your deck. But if you play 4, then the deck gets black hungry.

    Another note to the endless mana base discussion ;-):

    I wanted to underline my arguments by doing the maths. But as you can see I clearly said that the Badland approach of TheKingSlayer is good in his specific list for the reasons he mentioned. I advise another list and do not want to go to details now why I think my fixed main deck is the starting point for the archetype, I just refer to the primer.

    We should always be aware that all non blue duals are really bad. A starting hand with them can make a otherwise fantastic hand to a mulligan hand. But if you opt to go the way of operating with two lands, you must make that compromise. I even admit that Badlands vs Taiga is a tough question whereas Bayou is out of question for me as you cannot cast decay AND all other spells with the two lands Bayou and Tropical.

    You are right that 8 fetchlands would be sweet but I want at least two of the main duals. With Taiga/Badland it makes 7 duals and 7 fetches. Cutting the number of one main dual is not a clever move as I want to have a backup in case I need that dual and it gets wasted.

    To end the discussiom for now, I can only say that I have done thousands of testings with the deck and have had more losses with Badlands than with Taiga. I know that is not an understandable argument but with such a tough choice between these two duals you need playtesting to answer that question. It goes down to the point whether you can better use the Shaman ping feature (Badlands) or can cast all relevant spells in all situations (Taiga). It is also list and playstyle depending. I do not ping so often with Shaman in the early game. The reason: An untapped Shaman is crucial versus many decks to beat, as I need Shaman to let the opponent fizzle (Snappy, Punishing Fire, Opposing Shamans etc). Pinging is good versus stalled board states and during the end game. But again, as I play Goyfs I do not need Shaman to be an aggressive threat. 4 Shaman activations for pinging are two Goyf attacks.

  19. #39
    A king should never sit easy upon the Iron Throne
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    I try to play an Usea first if I want to open with Shaman or Delver. I never play Mongoose on the first turn. Then I fetch a Taiga and can cast every spell.

    If you go to the Badlands route like Kingslayer your first land has to be Tropical as you need a blue source as soon as possible for your reactive spells and cantrips. The second land should be a Badland.

    Multiple black sources are not that important with 3 Shamans in your deck. But if you play 4, then the deck gets black hungry.

    Another note to the endless mana base discussion ;-):

    I wanted to underline my arguments by doing the maths. But as you can see I clearly said that the Badland approach of TheKingSlayer is good in his specific list for the reasons he mentioned. I advise another list and do not want to go to details now why I think my fixed main deck is the starting point for the archetype, I just refer to the primer.

    We should always be aware that all non blue duals are really bad. A starting hand with them can make a otherwise fantastic hand to a mulligan hand. But if you opt to go the way of operating with two lands, you must make that compromise. I even admit that Badlands vs Taiga is a tough question whereas Bayou is out of question for me as you cannot cast decay AND all other spells with the two lands Bayou and Tropical.

    You are right that 8 fetchlands would be sweet but I want at least two of the main duals. With Taiga/Badland it makes 7 duals and 7 fetches. Cutting the number of one main dual is not a clever move as I want to have a backup in case I need that dual and it gets wasted.

    To end the discussiom for now, I can only say that I have done thousands of testings with the deck and have had more losses with Badlands than with Taiga. I know that is not an understandable argument but with such a tough choice between these two duals you need playtesting to answer that question. It goes down to the point whether you can better use the Shaman ping feature (Badlands) or can cast all relevant spells in all situations (Taiga). It is also list and playstyle depending. I do not ping so often with Shaman in the early game. The reason: An untapped Shaman is crucial versus many decks to beat, as I need Shaman to let the opponent fizzle (Snappy, Punishing Fire, Opposing Shamans etc). Pinging is good versus stalled board states and during the end game. But again, as I play Goyfs I do not need Shaman to be an aggressive threat. 4 Shaman activations for pinging are two Goyf attacks.
    Thank you :) I do understand that Goose is a horrible turn one play, but sometimes it is the only threat available. I look forward to reporting back with results and revelations on engineering the evolution of this super-awesome archetype.
    Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.

    Nemeses Slain:4

  20. #40

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Although I wanted to end the mana base discussion I have a small addition to the debate:

    With Taiga and Underground Sea every third land can cast our crucial sideboard spell Fire Covenant. Badlands/Tropical has not this ability. Playing badlands makes you dependent on Tropical Island and therefore you always have to choose whether to cast a threat with Tropical Island or hold up blue mana for Stifle/Counterspells/Cantrips. With Taiga in play you can cast your threats with the non-blue source and have a blue one open for your instants/sorceries. Although Lightning Bolt is the exception from that rule, the choice between casting a threat or bolting is not as hard as the choice of threat casting versus holding open blue mana.

    @TheKingSlayer: I am looking forward to read some sweet tournament reports here in this thread :) that is lacking ;)

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