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Thread: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

  1. #41
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    Although I wanted to end the mana base discussion I have a small addition to the debate:

    With Taiga and Underground Sea every third land can cast our crucial sideboard spell Fire Covenant. Badlands/Tropical has not this ability. Playing badlands makes you dependent on Tropical Island and therefore you always have to choose whether to cast a threat with Tropical Island or hold up blue mana for Stifle/Counterspells/Cantrips. With Taiga in play you can cast your threats with the non-blue source and have a blue one open for your instants/sorceries. Although Lightning Bolt is the exception from that rule, the choice between casting a threat or bolting is not as hard as the choice of threat casting versus holding open blue mana.

    @TheKingSlayer: I am looking forward to read some sweet tournament reports here in this thread :) that is lacking ;)
    +1 to this. I recently just realized how much I wanted to just have U. Sea and Taiga in play while waiting for that perfect moment to cast Fire Covenant.

    Do you side Fire Covenant in against DeathBlade or do you prefer Submerge? I like siding out FoW and sometimes even Daze against them. So I can/might fit some Fire Covenants/Submerges in against them G2/G3. I keep Daze on the play against them because its as good as removal against DRS.

  2. #42

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Do not get me wrong but I ask myself why I write down a sideboard guide in hours and weeks (the matchups have be played to know how to board) if such questions are asked ;-)

    In the primer there is the following SB plan concerning Esper Blade and Death Blade:


    //Blade:
    //-3 Daze-1 Force+2 ReB+ 1 Ancient Grudge +1 Fire Covenant

    //Death Blade:
    -4 Daze -2 Force + 2 ReB + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Compost+ 1 Loam + 1 Fire Covenant

  3. #43
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I still think it's bad to run only 3 Deathrithes. That card is the whole point to actually go for the deck and it's so super awesome in nearly every situation. While I also like Goose a lot it has more build in variance. While I would love to run 4 copies of each the deck is already heavy on creatures.

    Concerning the Taiga, I think I have to agree with it for now. It's just needed in a couple of situations, mostly to not lose tempo. A 4th deathrite is of course a boon for the mana as well.

    Regarding sb plans:
    Boarding out Daze vs Shardless Bug seems weird. I can see it on the draw, but on the play it's questionable. Shardless is already slow and coupled with the land disruption Daze often is better than any other counterspell in the game if you are ahead, which you should be. You cut yourself off answers to Liliana and random strong cascades while not allowing yourself to tap out for threats early in the game.
    Humphrey is always correct.

  4. #44

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    hey awesome to see more German faces in the thread.

    I can answer all of your questions and concerns:

    Playing 4 Shaman would be powerful but we would have to play with three black sources and therefore weaken our mana base. That is due to the fact that we want to support multiple Shamans in play with a playset. As the full set of Delvers and Mongoose is out of question, you have to evaluate Goyf. We played with 0 Goyfs in the past, you should know that. But the deck was too focused on the early game success and lost rapidly its value after that. With my innovation of 2 Goyfs the creature base is balanced as hell and has the beatstick it always asked for. The tempo mirror is now winnable with two Goyfs, before that we had to struggle versus even newbie Canadian Thresh players.
    So to sum it up: We do not have the deck space nor the mana base for 4 Shamans. We must live with it that bUrg is the best of the worlds of Canadian and Team America. There need compromises to be made to achieve that.

    Glad you are now on the Taiga train.

    The boarding versus Shardless was a matter of long brainstorming between Carsten Linden, Florian Koch and me. We felt that the boarded in cards have such a great power level that it compensates and exceeds the fact we board out our tempo counters. With so much removal and less counters we become the "midrange" deck in the matchup - a matchup that Shardless BUG hates. We have many good Shardless players here who can play around Daze. If you feel that your opponent is not so strong, you can board in one Submerge and REB less on the play plus board one Bolt out and let three Dazes in.

    I hope I could help you a little with your questions.

  5. #45
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    Do not get me wrong but I ask myself why I write down a sideboard guide in hours and weeks (the matchups have be played to know how to board) if such questions are asked ;-)

    In the primer there is the following SB plan concerning Esper Blade and Death Blade:


    //Blade:
    //-3 Daze-1 Force+2 ReB+ 1 Ancient Grudge +1 Fire Covenant

    //Death Blade:
    -4 Daze -2 Force + 2 ReB + 1 Ancient Grudge + 1 Compost+ 1 Loam + 1 Fire Covenant
    Haha! Sorry I missed that XD

    I should probably print the guide out the first tourney I play this deck. I'm still short on 2 U. Seas and 1 Goyf plus some of the SB cards but I'm pretty much good to go by the end of the month.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I understand Taiga > Badlands better now. I was probably playing the deck wrong rushing my Mongeese into play when I should have been Pondering or bluffing Stifles instead. I was having a lot of trouble casting Rakdos Charm and Fire Covenant out of the board when I opened with a Tropical Island. You really don't need green until later (2nd or 3rd land).

    An interesting thing about tempo decks with DRS that has been occurring a lot lately is that I often try to make my first 4 land drops when I am not holding a Brainstorm and I have a DRS in play. This allows me to hardcast FoW. Is it a bad decision? Should I always be holding back my lands in case I draw a Brainstorm?

    On a different note, I have been having a lot of trouble against other tempo decks like Team America and RUG. They play more Goyfs and that's basically what the game boils down to: Goyf wars. DnT has also been giving me trouble. I don't want to start playing more Decays because the card is hard enough to cast as it is, however, I was thinking that maybe Ghastly Demise or Dismember could be a solution. I am seriously considering Dread of Night for all Mom/Thalia/Souls decks. Surgical Extraction is also another very potent card against RUG but I have trouble getting behind the concept of of such a card for such a matchup in practice.
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  7. #47
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    4 shaman are to much becaue you only want 1and not more on the field..
    You need a real clock like goyf;)

  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    I understand Taiga > Badlands better now. I was probably playing the deck wrong rushing my Mongeese into play when I should have been Pondering or bluffing Stifles instead. I was having a lot of trouble casting Rakdos Charm and Fire Covenant out of the board when I opened with a Tropical Island. You really don't need green until later (2nd or 3rd land).

    An interesting thing about tempo decks with DRS that has been occurring a lot lately is that I often try to make my first 4 land drops when I am not holding a Brainstorm and I have a DRS in play. This allows me to hardcast FoW. Is it a bad decision? Should I always be holding back my lands in case I draw a Brainstorm?

    On a different note, I have been having a lot of trouble against other tempo decks like Team America and RUG. They play more Goyfs and that's basically what the game boils down to: Goyf wars. DnT has also been giving me trouble. I don't want to start playing more Decays because the card is hard enough to cast as it is, however, I was thinking that maybe Ghastly Demise or Dismember could be a solution. I am seriously considering Dread of Night for all Mom/Thalia/Souls decks. Surgical Extraction is also another very potent card against RUG but I have trouble getting behind the concept of of such a card for such a matchup in practice.
    You won't ever really want 4 lands in play, for the most part. View each land in your hand as virtual card advantage and a resource. Hold onto them to bluff counters and replace with brainstorm/shuffles.
    Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.

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  9. #49
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    4 shaman are to much becaue you only want 1and not more on the field..
    You need a real clock like goyf;)
    I had several situations where I was happy to have more than one on the field and it's not like the Shaman has a long life anyway, having a second one to recharge is so important so often. Nothing feels more powerful than to get a Shaman forced in the tempo mirror just to slam a second copy. In general I like to have better chances to draw the card as it's never dead and very imporant in some matchups.
    I guess I will just stick to my version for now. If the meta changes or I start to dislike it... I can just swap cards ;)

    @Sasan: Thanks for the insight. Think I will just proceed to board as I do against Shardless, I feel very confident against that deck anyway, but I will reconsider your plan at least when I'm on the draw.

    @opposing Goyfs: I rarely have trouble with them. The deck runs enough answers. I like the matchup against other tempodecks in general, Shaman is just so sweet here. The matchup is more centered about Landdestruction than Goyfs and whoever has acces to more mana wins most of the time.
    Humphrey is always correct.

  10. #50

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    TheKingSlayer is absolutely right.

    The mentioned matchups, especially the tempo mirrors are only winnable with a ton of experience. The better player wins. That is not a design fault in bUrg, because you can ask a Canadian Thresh player if he likes the mirror and he will reply that playing mirrors gives him headaches.

    For all starters who want more information on play style please read thoroughly the primer. I will update it regularly and it will soon become all you need to understand the deck.


    But there is also an external article that is the Holy Grail of explanations. It explains how to play RUG Delver. The most part can be referred to bUrg, too. I know bad players that became a lot more successful just after reading the article and here it is:

    http://manadeprived.com/canadian-threshold-a-primer/

    @dunkle_stille: perhaps you can post your list and your boarding idea versus Shardless. Every discussion is welcome. The fact that the primer states a list as a must with nearly no flex slots is due to the fact to give beginners are starting point to the archetype, a blueprint which is the base for discussions why someone differs from it. That does not mean that other lists are worse. So in short: Just give us the damned list :-P

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by sherko7 View Post
    +1 to this. I recently just realized how much I wanted to just have U. Sea and Taiga in play while waiting for that perfect moment to cast Fire Covenant.

    Do you side Fire Covenant in against DeathBlade or do you prefer Submerge? I like siding out FoW and sometimes even Daze against them. So I can/might fit some Fire Covenants/Submerges in against them G2/G3. I keep Daze on the play against them because its as good as removal against DRS.
    Something that must be considered in this instance of casting Fire Covenant is that you will need three sources of mana already (whether from Deathrite, or a third land. I suppose it is relevant when considering using wasteland as a potential mana source. But it must also be taken into consideration that Fire Covenant is also a SB card, so the frequency of relevance can fluctuate depending on how many decks you potentially sideboard it in against.

    @Sasan - Also, have you considered replacing a 4th Mongoose with a 4th Deathrite, as Deathrite is awesome on turn 1, whereas Mongoose is not- Deathrite dies a lot, whereas Mongoose is very good at surviving?
    Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.

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  12. #52

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Yes, Wasteland often becomes a mana source in terms of Fire Covenant. In the current meta Fire Covenant is boarded in versus nearly all decks to beat and many Tier 1.5 Decks. The card is just awesome now :)

    I have indeed played with three Mongoose - whether to play with only 12 creatures or play a fourth Deathrite. It was ok but not great. The starting hands with double Deathrite felt clunky. I hated 4 Shamans as I always wanted to black sources in play. That forced bad plays. but it is a consideration that can be made, but if you cut one mongoose please play one reanimate in the SB as the virtual fourth Mongoose.

  13. #53
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    @dunkle_stille: perhaps you can post your list and your boarding idea versus Shardless. Every discussion is welcome. The fact that the primer states a list as a must with nearly no flex slots is due to the fact to give beginners are starting point to the archetype, a blueprint which is the base for discussions why someone differs from it. That does not mean that other lists are worse. So in short: Just give us the damned list :-P
    Well, my maindeck differs by just 1 card. It's not like the deck has that many options anyway, the 2 Goyf are already the flex slots.
    My sb was originally a bit different, but right now I'm trying your version. I used to play 4 Submerge 3 Surgical Extraction, but Submerge has fallen out of favor a bit since drawing too many without any clock is just terrible and sadly people know too well how to play around it. Extraction on the other hand is just a card I like a lot since it has a lot of random value and it helps to combat "random" decks, like Painter, Manaless Dredge, weird Land decks etc while also helping vs Combo and UW ( often it's not the worst to remove a "random" card like a cantrip, you usually mess up some plans and seeing their hand is sweet information ).
    In the last days I've met more "real" decks again which made me consider your SB. I like the random Loam a lot, sadly other green decks also use it to combat us.

    More sb talk: I start to dislike this decks tools against creatures. Submerge varies in strength mostly depending on the board position and Fire Covenant only wins style awards. Often it's tough to find a good timing to sweep the opponent's board so you are left with an extremely expensive Vendetta ( well, at least it hits black crits ). While it can create massive blowouts the price is extremely high, in all possible directions. The card suffers a similar problem that dismember has: On the one hand you would want to remove creatures, but if your opponent plays creatures he will probably attack your life total anyway, so often you destroy a creature that already dealt x dmg to you and then it deals an additional x dmg. Sacrificing life in a world where everyone can attack your life total directly with Deathrite is not as good as it's used to be. Especially if you are already on a silly low life total and are forced to kill the Shaman your opponent just topdecked.


    @Shardless:
    This deck can't board into "midrange". Attack their mana and keep them from playing Liliana is probably the best advice I can give. You will need a lot of ressources and them to not hit their few important pieces. Creatures can be dealt with, but Decay is a beast. Daze is strong versus Agent himself. Once they hit 4 and more mana Daze loses value, but you want to get your value out of it before they can get this far anyway. Even later it's still fine as they will try to stabilize and often need to cast more spells in one turn.


    random stuff:
    Calling hands with 2 Deathrite "clunky" might be true sometimes, but so are the hands with 2 Geese a lot of times. It always depends on the opener, the matchup and how the game evolves. Fancy note: Just play 61 cards and 4 Goose 4 Shaman!

    Reanimate in the SB sounds great. In some matchups I'd love to run like 20 creatures and this might be the card I'm looking for.
    Humphrey is always correct.

  14. #54

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Fire Covenant is a sideboard all star, I often had situations that I pushed myself with Fire Covenant to 4 life or less and won. The crucial part is the right time to cast it. It honors good plays and punishs bad decisions. So I must admit that I hate that card sometimes ;). Versus certain decks a rough/tumble would be great, one thing that is a staple in Canadian Sideboards. But we cannot play with that card due
    to Shaman. If Grixis or UR Delver become a thing thanks to Young Pyromancer we could also play Echoing Truth instead 1 Submerge or so.

    Although I understand your points I think that in this Goyf and Shaman creature meta we need at least 5 SB creature removals.

    A note on Shardless: REB and Grudge deals with a good amount of their creatures, too. Daze can be played easy around. As the games go long Daze will lose its value. But as we have discussed, Daze is a smart move versus bad opponents on the play :-)

    Playing 61 cards is not an option as we have only 13 blue sources and cannot afford to weaken our mana base.

    Reanimate is more flexible than one might think. Ever reanimated an opposing Knight or Griselbrand? Fun stuff.

  15. #55
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I don't question Covenant or would cut any "removal" out of the sb - I just want to point out that they are not the perfect Solution like e.g. Flusterstorm is against Combo. I wouldn't cut any of them right now, just to remind everyone that, as cool the card is, it's no I win button with a threat in play.

    Shardless: "Deals with a good amount of creatures" aka Strix, which not even all versions play. Agent is hardly relevant by itself. Being able to have some situational out against them is cute, but will rarely be the key to victory. Hitting other artifacts they might bring in is cool though, but I have never even seen someone board Jitte against me.
    I will also probably never get why Daze should only be good vs bad players. Because of Deathrite? Decay? Daze might be a bit more situational here than against other decks but often enough they are still forced to play the curve or get screwed by random land destruction. The problem though is that all card you can bring in here have some level of variance. It's hard to tell which of all the options is definitely the worst. Also, smart opponents might realize that you boarded out Dazes at some point... would you board them back in then?

    61 cards was a joke :)
    Humphrey is always correct.

  16. #56

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    If they realize I boarded out Dazes, I would probably pretend that I board Daze in by letting one Daze fall in front of the opponent while boarding and curse and say it was an accident. And then I would not board them in as now he will play around it ;-)

  17. #57

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=58928

    bUrg is winning in the States. Great. I will post remarks on the decklist later. It is not the best one but decent.

  18. #58

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    If they realize I boarded out Dazes, I would probably pretend that I board Daze in by letting one Daze fall in front of the opponent while boarding and curse and say it was an accident. And then I would not board them in as now he will play around it ;-)
    Close to the stock list. Cuts 2 goyfs and 3 snares for an ooze, 2 pierce and 2 gitaxian probe.

    The SB cuts a spellbomb for a cage, a compost for a vortex and a pierce for a 3rd decay. He did lose 0-2 to Theo Van Dooselaere who T8'd with Manaless Dredge.

    Does this deck have any room for a Probe or 2?

  19. #59

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    The Sideboard is exactly the one proposed in the primer concerning the 13 fix slots.
    Only the inclusion of the third Decay instead of another Pierce is the difference. But that difference comes from the main deck changes:

    The lack of Snares, that target Goyfs, Counterbalaances, Stoneforges etc, leads to the fact that you do not have that much "removal spells" main deck. If you take into consideration that the Probes also make it impossible to run more main deck removal spells, you can clearly see that he needed a third Decay in the SB.

    Playing with Ooze instead of double Goyfs is a bit lackluster. This is not the current state of the development of the archetype. Only the 13 creature base with Goyfs is flexible enough for many matchups. Without Goyfs you do not have a late game bomb. Ooze is slow and is only a one off.

    The interesting question is if the inclusion of Probes makes up for all these disadvantages. Remember that you play with only 58 real cards with two Probes.I can answer that: No. Two Probes make the chance of drawing an extra removal, extra creature, extra land only slightly better (your chances of drawing one is 1/58 with two Probes Nd 1/60 without them). The extra information provided by the Probes is not worth it as a good player can foresee many situations. So Probe is ok but not needed. We have better options. I can think that Jacob Wilson, a RUG Delver player, will disagree here ;-)

  20. #60
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I think Probe has a lot of value in RUG and bUrg. No matter how good of a player you are, you will never know exactly what your opponent is holding. Having that information lets you know that your opponent needs his fetch for his 3rd colored source or that you have to aggressively dig for a Wasteland because he is holding a Verdict. You get to know what you are playing against during G1 and might make you cast a Ponder for counterspells as opposed to a Delver when you know a turn 2 SnT is coming or that Belcher is about to go off. Also, Mongoose suffers from a severe problem in this deck because he doesn't reach threshold fast enough. Thought Scour seems like a natural inclusion in this deck but it simply becomes too shaky to self-mill in a 4-colored deck with a very low count of key dual lands. This, in turn, makes cutting Stifle in favor of Scour not an option because you need to keep all your duals available and counter as many wastelands as you can. Probe is the second best option to fill your GY faster. It also happens to be a Sorcery spell, which Goyf tends to crave.

    As much as I love Spell Snare, it is certainly not as versatile as Spell Pierce. Even if Snare is really good right now, Pierce and Decay are both better at answering what Snare answers with the exception of Baleful Strix. Strix is and will always be an asshole to Delver decks, thats why you have Pyroblast, FoW, and Daze, and...

    Darkblast in the SB? I personally use it over the 2nd Fire Covenant. It is extremely good vs. Maverick, DnT, Goblins, Elves, and Strix. You can use it as early as T1 and it fills up my GY for DRS, Goyf, and Mongoose. I can only give you positive feedback about this card, it really deserves a slot in the SB. As much as I love Covenant, I find it difficult to cast when I need it because of its hefty mana cost and, sometimes, difficult additional cost. Darkblast is overall smoother and fits our strategy like a glove:

    -Early removal
    -Instant speed
    -Low cost
    -Pumps our threats
    -Always available

    As far as the evolution of the list, I am using the 2 Decay/2 Pierce/2 Probe configuration with 4 Delver/3 DRS/3 Mongoose/2 Goyf. Mongoose suffers from the same problem as DRS when it comes to playing multiples. Mongoose are really bad before threshold and supporting more than 1 DRS is very difficult so I cut them both down to 3 and tried the 2 Goyf tech suggested by Sasan because the deck lacked pressure.

    On the topic of the manabase again, I adopted the Taiga now that I play 2 Goyfs and 3 DRS. However, I still think that playing the 2nd Volcanic over the 4th fetch is a mistake. Fetches give you access to all your duals and act as DRS and Mongoose food, playing the 8 available fetches is a no-brainer. I don't think you need to have more than 2 red sources to support 4 Bolts. We don't even have 3 black sources for 3 DRS and 2 Decays...

    My current SB looks like this:


    2 Submerge
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Darkblast
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Fire Covenant
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Vendilion Clique
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