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Thread: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

  1. #1861

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Hi Xod
    Gurmag is way better than Tombstalker, especially in a 4c deck. Flying is not always relevant but B vs. BB cost is nearly always relevant. There will be times when you will have to wait an extra turn or several turns to find that second black source and you will wish you had Gurmag. Yes, sometimes you get stared down by a TNN but those occasions are scarce compared to the usual suboptimal draw sequences you have to fix, Wasteland flinging from both parties, and timely aggression your Gurmag will fend off by virtue of being faster. Tombstalker is a huge pet card of mine and I seriously dislike Gurmag's art but the latter is clearly superior in our deck. Here are some all too common scenarios:

    -2 lands, Cast a Ponder looking for a threat or removal
    -Usea, Volc and Trop. Need to draw a threat
    -2 lands against a Delver deck with a potential Daze

    I would even venture to say that Hooting Mandrill is probably superior to Tombstalker in your deck (-1 USea +1 Trop).
    Yeah I know, common sense tells me that Angler *should* be better in general due to the manacost, but so many times where tombstalker provides that extra hit pure because of the flying. Getting past a blocker to kill that planeswalker, flying over recurrable blockers/tokens. Something a Angler cannot. But now that you mentioned Mandrills, that might be a good alternative. Good against tokens (might die from multiple blockers), can get over that TNN, only negative point is, that angler is bigger, and that it's 'useless' against eldrazi (where tombstalker shines). And eldrazi is still played in my meta. But I'll might try it this Thursday (big tournament on Sunday)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Fatal Push vs. Decay vs. Dismember is quite the conundrum. I've given up on Push entirely as it is simply more difficult to cast in time compared to Dismember. Being a 4c tempo deck we want to curve out our plays for our deck to be most efficient. Cantriping into removal is more manageable when your potential removal is red or colorless. Paying life is a small price to pay for the consistency and versatility that Dismember has over Push. I play Dismember #1 and #2 over Push #1. I play 4 Bolts and 2 Dismembers when I play 6 removal Spells and 4 Bolts, 1 Dismember and 2 Decays when I play 7. Decay is alone one of the reasons to play 4c in the first place so when you fit them mainboard you get to free some SB slots. I usually get a proper use out of Decays during G1 while Push is more often stranded G1 than a tempo boost compared to Decay. I think the main reason to play Push would be to pack a few Snapcasters.
    I went too push because of the manacost. But indeed decay is the more versable choice and uncounterble. Not to mention, it can destroy that dreaded CotV on 1. Will go back to 4 bolts, 2 decay, and 1 dismember.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Preordain is better mainboard than Painful Truths. Preordain is relevant to all matchups and increases your potential keeps for your openers. Preordain fixes our color requirements, feeds Goyf and Delve creatures in a timely fashion and pitches to FoW (or finds it!). If you want something a bit bigger than Preordain and that can grind even more than Truths, try out Sylvan Library. The manipulation you get over the course of a grindy match is very difficult for a control deck to handle, especially G1. Library is also cheaper and more versatile as you don't have to pay life for extra cards. Snapcaster is also a better card than Truths overal that can take on several roles and is never sided out.
    I like Painful Truth just because it can refill your hand in a pinch and help you stock up on FoW or Daze, or find anything you need. With Dark Thresh I played 2, and I never lost a game where I could resolve one. Might be a pet card, but it's so good :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    My experience with Snare was dissapointing. I tried 2 copies and quickly made Snare a 0-1 card as it too often sits in your hand for too long or promotes subpar plays even in matchups where it is relevant. Snare is also one of those cards that is highly polarized but that offers little reward. Like Stifle, Snare is either good or worthless. Unlike Stifle, a Snare doesn't have the potential to greatly cripple your opponent. Snare is good at making small tempo gains (note: only when it is relevant to the matchups) or preventing card advantage (Strix, SFM, Hymn). For these reasons, if I have a slot to fill with interaction, I prefer Stifle to Snare. Of course Snare can be good against some combo decks but Stifle is always good against those as well. Again, the only time I would play a Snare over a Stifle in a Delver shell would be with a few Snapcasters.
    I'm a big fan of Stifle, and I do get the 1-off in a deck, but when I play stifle, I prefer a playset, and prefer playing it in a deck like RUG Delver or Dark Thresh. The Snare is good against so many things where stifle does nothing:
    - Hymn (stifle does nothing)
    - CotV on 1 (stifle does nothing)
    - Strix (stifle the draw trigger, but that dreadful deathtouch bird stays behind)
    - SFM (stifle might stop the fetch-equipment, but they can have a batterskull in hand)
    - Snapcaster (body stays behind)
    - Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish (stifle might help against the storm trigger in the end, but by then they already targetted you with discard, snare stops them right there)
    - Dark Confident (stifle does nothing)
    - so many other things...

    Stifle is good (or at least the best) at 2 things: stopping a wasteland and killing a fetch. By doing so crippling there manabase. But again, then the full playset would be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Bitterblossom didn't live up to my expectations. I tried it in a variety of matchups and it simply wasn't great. The only matchups where it truly shine are Czech Pile and Miracles. Nothing else unfortunately... I prefer KCommand and Sylvan Library as SB grind slots by a mile as they are widely applicable. Blossom will come in if my mainboard threat suite is severely lacking in resillience (AKA: 3-4 Goyfs configuration)
    I put bitterblossom in, mainly for Miracles and Czech Pile (maybe also against lands?) :-) And there are enough of those in my meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Life from the Loam is a card I no longer pack in my SB because it is narrow, situational, and polarized. Loam is only relevant in a handful of matchups like Delver and other Loam decks or controle decks without basics. Even when it is relevant to the matchup it isnt always relevant to the situation. Loam doesn't take pressure off your shoulders and doesn't help you find answers. Loam without Wasteland is lackluster and doesn't always pull me ahead. Loam doesn't pull its weight as a SB card. I expect more from that slot.
    Right now I had a decay instead of the loam (but had no decay's main) But with 2 main, what would this slot go to? Card filter like library? Sweeper like deluge or make obsolete (saving your TNN)? Forked bolt? Any suggestions are welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Misty Rainforest doesn't fetch Badlands and Scalding Tarn is just like Delta for your manabase so you might as well use the 8 fetches that can get any dual before any Misty.
    The reason for the misty's is very simple (explained it in an earlier post I think), I don't own any Tarns :-) But loan them for the big tournament, but might going to buy them (currently a bit low on cash flow).

  2. #1862
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I played a 1/1 split of Gurmles and Tombstalker about a year ago without playing Badlands and it worked fine.

    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14590&d=287498&f=LE

    I would definitely play 3 Sea, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands, 2 Trop and Tombstalker over 3 Sea, 2 Volc, 2 Trop and Gurmag. Stalker is just the nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  3. #1863
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Xod View Post
    I'm a big fan of Stifle, and I do get the 1-off in a deck, but when I play stifle, I prefer a playset, and prefer playing it in a deck like RUG Delver or Dark Thresh. The Snare is good against so many things where stifle does nothing:
    - Hymn (stifle does nothing)
    - CotV on 1 (stifle does nothing)
    - Strix (stifle the draw trigger, but that dreadful deathtouch bird stays behind)
    - SFM (stifle might stop the fetch-equipment, but they can have a batterskull in hand)
    - Snapcaster (body stays behind)
    - Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish (stifle might help against the storm trigger in the end, but by then they already targetted you with discard, snare stops them right there)
    - Dark Confident (stifle does nothing)
    - so many other things...

    Stifle is good (or at least the best) at 2 things: stopping a wasteland and killing a fetch. By doing so crippling there manabase. But again, then the full playset would be better.

    ...

    Right now I had a decay instead of the loam (but had no decay's main) But with 2 main, what would this slot go to? Card filter like library? Sweeper like deluge or make obsolete (saving your TNN)? Forked bolt? Any suggestions are welcome.
    When I look at Stifle vs. Snare I look at the matchup, not the cards.

    -Hymn (Team America/Czech Pile)
    These are the matchups where Snare shines the most over Stifle (especialy Czech Pile). Stifle is still very good too.
    -CotV (Eldrazi/Dragon Stomph)
    Both Stifle and Snare suck here
    -Strix (Czech Pile mostly)
    -SFM (DnT/Stoneblade)
    Both Stifle and Snare have merit here. Stifle offers more ways to deal with SFM and equipments than Snare that can make your opponent lose precious time and mana. Stifle has notable applications against Mom, Flicker, Recruiter, Explosives.
    -Snapcaster (Czech/Blade/Miracle)
    Snare hits Counterspell, Stifle hits Miracle, EE, and precious fetches). I also don't care about a 2/1 so Stifle and Snare are functionally similar against Snapcaster.
    -Tutors (ANT/TES/Belcher)
    Snare is a fine answer when their combo involves a tutor. Stifle has more application and retains blowout potential.
    -Bob (Jund? Deadguy?)
    Both Snare and Stifle have a lot of targets in these matchups. I find that making your opponent stumble on mana when they play a non-blue deck to be quite potent.

    And then ere are all the matchups where Snare is worthless (or nearly so) and Stifle has some useful applications such as Sneak n Show, Elves, Lands, Nic Fit, Dredge, etc...

    I replaced Loam with Sylvan Library. It offers grinding power and is really devastating for the right matchup. Basically you can never go wrong with a Sylvan... It's a bit like Pithing Needle or Pyroblast: generic, versatile, and powerful

    @Steve,

    Even with your first mana configuration Tombstalker has a real drawback if you intend on casting green spells. The most common openers for this deck involve a Trop on T1 or T2. Without green spells (Decay, Goyf, Mongoose) mainboard there is little incentive to play this deck over Grixis.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  4. #1864

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Even with your first mana configuration Tombstalker has a real drawback if you intend on casting green spells. The most common openers for this deck involve a Trop on T1 or T2. Without green spells (Decay, Goyf, Mongoose) mainboard there is little incentive to play this deck over Grixis.
    Ah, there is the difference, I usually fetch for a Sea on T1. Because the double black on Stalker, Black for DRS, or black for decay. Tropical would indeed also be good for DRS, and decay and Tarmogoyf. But since you usually don't drop the Goyf on turn 2 or 3, I normally don't have the need to fetch for the tropical in the first turn (sometimes in the second for decay) Plus DRS helps fixing colors (if he lives).

    I was watching at the original decklists, where people played a playset stifle over ponder. Is that really worth it? Might consider it. But sounds clunky. Probably shaving on threads would be better to get the Stifle in, but then you get again closer to RUG or BUG threshold.

    Also as sweepers, is Fire Covenant or Sudden Demise still considerable? But then again, Golgari charm does a similar thing, maybe better on some cases. (against TNN or Mom)

    Aargh, still not sure what to do :-)

    3 trops, 2 seas and 2 mandrills
    or
    3 seas, 2 trops and 2 stalkers

    The first one will definitly provide quicker beats. The second one, will be more likely get all the hits through and help in troublesome matchups, with the downside of getting 2 black and hitting the table at least a turn later.

    This Thursday, I'll try the drills and see how it goes.

  5. #1865
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    The issue with opening with USea if you have Goyf and Decay in your deck is that Trop is the only viable 2nd land drop that will give you access to those spells. This cuts you off red mana until your 3rd land drop so you risk drawing into dead cards or being severely set back by Wasteland. Goyf and Decay are much more likely to be required earlier on than black for DRS activations as a T1-2 DRS is generally best used as a mana producer. The proper manabase for T1 Usea openers contains a Taiga over a Badlands as it is important for your manabase to be able to cover all of your spells within your first 2 land drops. Trop also enables the most spells to be played so it is natural for Trop to be your first land. In my list, Trop casts DRS, Decay, Goyf/Mongoose while USea casts DRS, Decay, and Gurmag when I play it.

    Let's not forget that a 4c deck with 4 Wastelands is already greedy to begin with. Cards like DRS and Dismember mitigate the colored costs of our spells in a brilliant way by allowing black to be kept at a minimum. Trying to further stretch your manabase into including BB spells is unreasonable in my opinion.

    I would never play Stifle over Ponder. Ponder is far superior to Stifle for a million reasons so I'll stop here.

    If you play Goyfs and Delve creatures I preffer Golgari Charm as my sweeper of choice. It is generally 1-sided, faster than any 3 mana alternative (Empty the Warrens), and it destroys enchantments so it has multiple uses against DnT (RiP) and comes in when I expect Blood Moon or Choke to come out (Sneak n Show, Maverick/Junk, Lands, Grixis Ctrl)

    For your Delve suite I recommend either Gurmag or Mandrill. Gurmag is the biggest and baddest for the cheapest cost but Mandrill has his perks. It all depends on what role you want the card to fill. Mandrills is better at getting past tokens, TNN, Mom. He is also on-color and costs less Delve so he comes down quicker and maneuvers around Goyf and DRS better. For most matchups, faster is better. For Eldrazi, bigger is better. Against opposing Gurmags and Goyfs, Mandrill won't cut it. A good way to make your deck more stable and Mandrill-friendly would be to have more Dismembers in your deck. More dismembers = less black requirement and more Gurmag/TKS/Smasher answers. That way Mandrill's main focus and utility becomes a resillient threat that won't be chumped by tokens, TNN, Mom protections, Wirewood shenanigans (Stall tactics). Gurmag shines against Delver decks (Grixis, BUG, UR) and Eldrazi while Mandrill shines against Czech Pile, Grixis Ctrl, TNN blade decks.

    I've been playing no Delve creatures at all in my past 2 tournaments simply because there is a high concentration of Miracles players in my meta and I want to avoid tension between Mongoose, Goyf, DRS, and Delve. I admit that I did miss Gurmag against every BUG deck I've faced. This is my latest list:


    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Nimble Mongoose
    2 Tarmogoyf
    2 True-Name Nemesis

    1 Dismember
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    1 Green Sun's Zenith

    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands

    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grafdigger's Cage


    Compared to my previous configuration of:
    4 DRS
    4 Delver
    3 Goyfs
    2 TNN
    2 Gurmag

    1 Snare

    I didn't have enough quality threats to take on Miracles even during G2 with Blossom and Snare wasn't particularly good. I wanted to retain a good amount of quick and powerful threats to have an edge over fast and aggressive decks like Grixis Delver, UR Delver and Eldrazi so I wanted access to 2-3 Goyfs. I didn't want to play too many Goyfs either because the card is quite underwhelming in many matchups such as every control deck in Legacy at the moment. I also wanted access to 4+ resilient threats that I could ride against control decks and playing more than 2-3 TNN starts to get really clunky, even with DRS. Adopting a single GSZ allowed me to balance out my threats accordingly and even gave me a 5th DRS against GY decks (gave me a game vs. Dredge). It is also a great tool against Miracles as GSZ will reshuffle and Mongoose being Terminus'd to my library makes my deck packed with Shroud creatures as the game progresses.

    Losing Gurmag was not without a cost however. I went back to 7 removal spells main and added Thoughtseizes in the board for combo matchups because I need more quality removal to clear the way for Mongoose in some matchups. My matchup against Czech Pile and Miracle greatly improved but my matchup against Team America, Grixis Delver, and Eldrazi got slightly worse. Again, this configuration is a concession to my local meta saturated in Miracles and Strix control decks.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  6. #1866
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Genuine question: since you're playing green threats in these 4C decks, would Sea + Taiga be more optimal than Trop + Badlands? Sea + Taiga allows you to play a green creature with the Taiga while holding up Spell Pierce, Stifle (if you run it), and a Deathrite activation with the Sea.

  7. #1867
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by theMonster View Post
    Genuine question: since you're playing green threats in these 4C decks, would Sea + Taiga be more optimal than Trop + Badlands? Sea + Taiga allows you to play a green creature with the Taiga while holding up Spell Pierce, Stifle (if you run it), and a Deathrite activation with the Sea.
    It's a complex question to answer. Deathrite is a dork with a Trop and only becomes a threat with black mana. A t1 DRS off a Trop is the same as a t1 DRS off a USea because its purpose will be to generate mana. Starting T2-3 you want access to black mana to start dealing damage. Your second land drop is usually a USea, a Volc or a Badlands/Taiga. When you have cantrips and you can cover your color requirements with 2 blue duals, you usually want a Volc/USea. Having Taiga/Badlands as your second land usually means you have a combination of colored spells that require this particular combination. In that stage of the game there are little functional differences between Trop + Badland and USea + Taiga. They both have their respective advantages. The Taiga/Badland shines as a 3rd land, not a 2nd. Trop + USea + Badlands supports multiple DRS activations, pays Dismember in full, and means you cannot be Wasted off of blue or black mana. Whether you get Wasted off green or black doesn't matter for Decay because you cannot safeguard 3 colors with 3 lands.

    For the last list I posted, a Taiga over Badlands would be a sensible choice. I havent changed the manabase since I took out Gurmag for Mongoose and GSZ. My list now has considerably higher green requirements than black requirements.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  8. #1868

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Qweerios, thanks for the awesome insight!

  9. #1869
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    My pleasure!
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  10. #1870

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Hey guys,

    I’ve been playing Grixis Delver since the top ban and been quite found of this deck ever since, but I’ve been looking to change a bit and picked up this deck.

    I play in Paris, where the meta is a bit special : very few combos and a lot of non U midrange decks and 4c control. Today was an eternal week end trial which I won with the following list

    MAIN DECK
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Tarmogoyf
    2 Gurmag Angler

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    3 Stifle
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Abrupt Decay

    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Bitterblossom
    1 Winter orb
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Dismember
    1 golgari Charm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Toxic Deluge

    First here’s a small report of the event and my thoughts of the deck . I’d like to thank Steven Stampoulos for coming up with the list in the first place as well as answering my questions on Reddit / fb

    Round 1 Elves
    I open a slow hand, flood a bit and get rolled over both games . The MU seemed ok , and I could have won both with a bit more action

    0-1

    Round 2 bug shadow
    The 3 games are a lot similar : I disrupt his manabase with stifle / waste get down a threat, then he plays a shadow. Game 1 he can steal the game . Game 2 and 3 I keep my advantage , though the games were really close

    1-1
    Roud 3 4c contrôl.

    Game 1 I start with a heavy denial hand and shaman . I waste him a few times , stifle his fetches , but his hand had a lot of lands and he’s able to decay my shaman and then push my Goyf and resolve a true name
    Game 2 and 3 I win by keeping him out of tempo , did not draw my Sb haymakers Sylvan Library or winter orb

    2-1
    Round 4 lands
    Game 1 he mulls to 5 and I wasteland him 2 or 3 times while beating down with a Goyf and forcing his gamble .
    Game 2 I get down a shaman to disrupt his loam plan then bitterblossom which eventually runed away with the game

    3-1
    Round 5 Jund
    I don’t remember a lot of these games , just he flooded a bit and I had a lot of pressure with counterspells backup

    4-1

    Quarterfinals storm (TES)
    Game 1 he sets up a combo turn with a lot of mana , double discard and tendrils in hand . I had a delver and several counters but could not have won this one

    Game 2 and 3 I have an early threat and good hands with counterspells

    Semi 12 post
    I win game 1 via heavy denial : waste, stifle his map and beat down with a gurmag
    Game 2 is same scenario but fail to get down an early threat . I draw my Sylvan an winter orb but end up loosing to a primeval Titan which I failed to find a counter to even with Library and several cantrips

    Game 3 I mull to 5 but I have Goyf and Library . I play turn 2 Goyf turn 3 library and get disruption + pressure to win the game

    Finals my opponent concedes because he doesn’t want the byes and we split prizes


    I liked a lot the deck : it feels like grixis with Goyfs instead of YP. I’m a big fan of Goyf in the current meta, especially the Parisian one where pyro is sometimes lackluster

    Goyf still has its flaws against decks like 4c, miracles or blade but He can do a lot in other matchups

    Decay was nice though a bit clunky.
    Stifle definitely did not convince me. The card helped me a lot against 4c , but it either forces you to sequence badly to try and «*get*» someone, or can have a lackluster effect . I feel the card has to much variance ( it can be either great or totally dead ) and I don’t like it

    Sylvan Library I sided in for a lot of MU and it was just amazing . I sure the card can slot in the MD as it helps getting more cards after spending with the opponents resources early , find a threat etc. It’s good against combo decks, and grindy decks

    Going forward I think I might go back to grixis as the upside of playing Goyf doesn’t compensate the downside of having a less stable manabase . I still had a great time playing the deck and hope it gets more attention going forward


    Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

  11. #1871

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    After a long hiatus I am back.

    I updated the primer.

    Spoiler Alert: bUrg crushes the current meta and is better than Grixis Delver.

    Jokes aside: If you look at my current main deck, you will see that the main difference between Grixis and bUrg is the question Young Pyro vs Mongoose and Probes vs Stifle. Current Grixis lists do not play Cabal Therapies main. In the current meta, Mongoose is better and without Probes you have more deck space for impactful cards. The deck performs better than Grixis in most situations.
    Last edited by Sasan; 02-13-2018 at 04:12 AM.

  12. #1872
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    After a long hiatus I am back.

    I updated the primer.

    Spoiler Alert: bUrg crushes the current meta and is better than Grixis Delver.

    Jokes aside: If you look at my current main deck, you will see that the main difference between Grixis and bUrg is the question Young Pyro vs Mongoose and Probes vs Stifle. Current Grixis lists do not play Cabal Therapies main. In the current meta, Mongoose is better and without Probes you have more deck space for impactful cards. The deck performs better than Grixis in most situations.
    Are we sure on Mongoose?

    The problem I am finding of playing Delver decks without Probe against Delver decks with Probe is that they find what they're looking for much better than I do. Need their 1 of Dismember to deal with my Fish/Stalker? Who finds a creature first after the dust settles? The guy with more cantrips. While I draw Stifle #2 or Spell Pierce #3, they just churn through their deck faster - with perfect info on our hand.

    I always felt that Grixis Delver was favoured when playing against the LewisCBR Stifle-Grixis versions, but the super streamlined stock 75 that is all the rage now just seems like a whole new beast.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  13. #1873
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I just went 4-0 at a weekly going through Stasis, Jund, Turbo Depths and Grixis Control. During the last round there were 3 Control decks at the top tables so I felt pretty good about my odds (Grixis Ctrl, Punishing Dack, and Miracles). I also played a bunch of friendlies against Mardu and the deck felt very strong. Here's the list and comments:


    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Nimble Mongoose
    2 Tarmogoyf
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

    1 Dismember
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Green Sun's Zenith

    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands

    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Counterspell
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Bitterblossom


    Props:

    -Goyf won most of my games
    -Blossom put in work against Depths and Grixis Ctrl
    -GSZ acted as DRS#5 against Stasis, Mongoose#3 against Jund and Depths, and Leo#2 against Grixis Ctrl
    -Decay hitting Jitte, Blood Moon, Lilianas (both), and Young Pyro
    -Spell Pierce pairing with most of my plays.

    Slops:

    -Taking 5 mulligans to no-landers
    -Decay being difficult to cast and demanding a Badlands/Taiga
    -Badlands not producing blue

    I originally had my 4 Mongoose list with 2 Spell Snares prepared for the event but I opted against last minute. 4 Mongoose doesn't apply much pressure and I always feel like I have to bank on Snares to make them worthwhile... In a lot of matchups Shroud is irrelevant and Mongoose is underwhelming. In the matchups where Mongoose shine I only need to get one copy and ride it to victory. So I split Mongoose in half for 2 Goyfs and cut the 2 Snares for a Leo and a GSZ.

    Going forward I am tempted to adopt the 2nd Volcanic over Badlands. This would increase my keep odds for openers at the cost of my 3rd black source and the possibility of 4c on 2 lands. Having only 2 black sources pre-board is not problematic but could be an issue postboard when cards like Diabolic Edict, Golgari Charm, and KCommand are brought against Wasteland decks (Team America, DnT, Jund, Maverick, DeathBant/Blade). Most of my post-board games benefit from having access to more than 2 black sources. I also don't play Loam anymore as I find it's a waste of space.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  14. #1874
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Zenith... now that's not a bad idea.

    Mfw a Delver deck with 15 creatures has more of a toolbox for Zenith than Elves or Maverick does
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  15. #1875
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Zenith... now that's not a bad idea.

    Mfw a Delver deck with 15 creatures has more of a toolbox for Zenith than Elves or Maverick does
    I think I've mentionned this earlier about Zenith but I used to play a singleton Preordain both alongside and as a replacement for GSZ when I tested both cards. GSZ is essentially a cantrip into exactly the green creature you want. Paying 2 mana for a Mongoose or DRS is very reasonable given their power level. Paying 3 mana for a Goyf in the right matchup has a huge impact. I really like how GSZ reshuffles against Miracle because my odds of drawing a Mongoose are always reasonably high when their most common answer is Terminus.

    I believe the strength of 4c Delver lies in its versatility while maintaining an aggressive shell. Sprinkling a few cards like Decay, GSZ and some varied threats with specific strengths doesn't undercut the deck's aggressiveness while greatly mitigating Delver's traditional weaknesses.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  16. #1876

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    I think I've mentionned this earlier about Zenith but I used to play a singleton Preordain both alongside and as a replacement for GSZ when I tested both cards. GSZ is essentially a cantrip into exactly the green creature you want. Paying 2 mana for a Mongoose or DRS is very reasonable given their power level. Paying 3 mana for a Goyf in the right matchup has a huge impact. I really like how GSZ reshuffles against Miracle because my odds of drawing a Mongoose are always reasonably high when their most common answer is Terminus.

    I believe the strength of 4c Delver lies in its versatility while maintaining an aggressive shell. Sprinkling a few cards like Decay, GSZ and some varied threats with specific strengths doesn't undercut the deck's aggressiveness while greatly mitigating Delver's traditional weaknesses.
    This. That is why we have an edge versus most decks in the meta, espcially after boarding.

    Regarding the primer and my list:

    I am glad that the discussion has gained some steam. It was important to update the primer to include a new deck list and analyze the current meta. If you do not agree on my list, that is fine. There are many lists that work for this shell. I tried to focus that aspect in the updated primer.

  17. #1877
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Angler > Mandrills or Mandrills > Angler?
    WantToPonder
    former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
    Team MTG Berlin

    Quote Originally Posted by guillemnicolau View Post
    Since the print of dark petition grim tutor hasn't seen play in legacy (not in competitive decks).
    Quote Originally Posted by THerzog41 View Post
    I believe Maverick is still the best deck in the format and definitely the most underrated deck in the format.
    The Dragonstorm
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  18. #1878
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
    Angler > Mandrills or Mandrills > Angler?
    Angler is better.

    Angler trumps Goyf, Seer, and trades with Angler, Stalker, Smasher. It is also more difficult to get rid of with a Bolt (aka. Pyromancer + Bolt + token block). Beating for 5 is also better than 4. I find trample to be less relevant than all of those points.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  19. #1879

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    Angler is better.

    Angler trumps Goyf, Seer, and trades with Angler, Stalker, Smasher. It is also more difficult to get rid of with a Bolt (aka. Pyromancer + Bolt + token block). Beating for 5 is also better than 4. I find trample to be less relevant than all of those points.

    He is absolutely right ;-)

  20. #1880
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Snagged the 4-0 at last night's weekly with this absolute dog's breakfast of a pile last night.

    UB Reanimator 2-0
    4c Loam 2-0 (some truly degen draws from my end lol)
    DnT 2-0
    ANT 2-1

    Zenith, Truths and Whisper were insane all night and I was so glad I got to draw them multiple times to test them properly.

    //Creature (14)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Gurmag Angler
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    3 Tarmogoyf

    //Instant (20)
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Spell Pierce

    //Sorcery (7)
    1 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Night's Whisper
    1 Painful Truths
    4 Ponder

    //Land (19)
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
    SB: 2 Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
    SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    SB: 2 Pyroblast
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 2 Thoughtseize
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
    Last edited by Stevestamopz; 02-22-2018 at 08:42 PM. Reason: spelling
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

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