[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[theMonster]

Sweet list, and nice 4-0. I’m most curious about the Painful Truths over something like K-Command. Did you find having one more card was more valuable than the flexibility of K-Command? Which would you prefer in the Delver mirror?

[Stevestamopz]

Thanks homeslice.

It's of course always going to be context dependant, but I like Truths because it's more pro-active. Truths is just more removal, more dudes, more cantrips, more lands, whatever.

The deck is so full of good stuff and so devoid of situational cards like Pierce/Stifle that you just want to keep the cards flowing. Truths is just better a card in achieving that end. I would very much like to try a version with 1 Whisper and 2 Truths but perhaps that's too greedy.

[Qweerios]

Interesting list you cooked up. I am curious about GSZ without even a single Mongoose. DRS#2 is fine but wouldn't you rather get something like a 4th Goyf instead? Paying 3 mana for Goyf is probably one of the worst applications of GSZ in this deck IMO.

Night's Whisper and Painful Truths are interresting cards as well. I personally prefer Preordain and Sylvan Library over both of those.

I played my trusty 4c last tuesday to a mediocre finish. The only change I made was to replace the 3rd Surgical with a Needle. I lost every die roll and went 2-2

2-0 Dredge
SB: -2 Decay, -2 TNN, -1 Leo for +2 Surgical, +2 Fluster, +1 Counter

I always face Dredge when I take out a piece of GY hate in my SB... Anyway G1 he gets a nuts start but never gets anything good rolling while I play t1 DRS and eventually stabilize at 2 life in a long and grindy match. G2 I have 2 DRS with enough soft counters.

1-2 Grixis
SB: -2 Force, -2 Pierce for +2 Pyro, +2 Fluster

G1 he runs me over with 2 Delvers, Bolts and a wall of counters. G2 is my turn even though I missboarded putting him on UR Delver G1 (-4 Waste, -1 Dismember, -1 Force for +2 Pyro/Fluster/Edict). G3 I had a great double Delver with double Daze and Dismember hand but I lose to 3 Wastelands by virtue of going second. Basically I only get to cast Delvers while he fires a Wasteland before each of his plays (Delver and Bolt)... I lose holding Dazes, cantrips, and Dismember.

Any advice on boarding against Grixis? I am satisfied with my current plan but perhaps it could be improved upon. There isn't anything I really want to take out besides a few Forces. Fluster is a strict upgrade to Pierce which is the weakest card after FoW#3-4 IMO. I am also not a big fan of Pyroblast here either but I like it more than Fluster...

2-0 Steel Stompy
SB: -2 Pierce, -1 Leo for +1 Grudge, +1 Command, +1 Needle

This is a swingy matchup but Decay pre-board and Goyf puts in work. My opponent was new to his deck and sided out his Thorns which was a mistake. I drew Grudge in G2 and went to town. Ratchet Bomb is a serious hoser against my deck.

1-2-1 Burn
SB: -4 Waste, -1 Dismember for +2 Fluster +2 Edict, +1 Counter

G1 I keep a loose hand but brainstorm turns my DRS opener into a tripple DRS, Delver and Mongoose hand so I am feeling pretty hot. Before I get to cast any of them my opponent slams an Eidolon and my hand turns to shit and lose. G2 is a draw with PoP while he is at 1 life with a fetch in play while my T1 Delver wouldn't flip for 5 turns... G3 I roll him over with Goyf and soft counters. G4 I flood and try to ride TNN but I eventually lose to an unchecked Grim Lavamancer and an Exquisite Firecraft while I am holding a Flusterstorm and a few lands.

Going forward I question the validity of Decay pre-board. It only really shine against Miracles (CB and Azcanta) and Chalice decks... Decay is really clunky as a creature removal spell against Delver decks in general, DnT, And Elves for instance. Decay's mana cost is so difficult to meet on curve and forces bad card choices like Badlands>Volcanic which reduces our amount of keep-able openers. I really enjoy Decay for G2 and G3 in a lot of matchups but I think having cheaper and more availlable removal would be better G1. Cards like Dismember#2, Fatal Push and Forked Bolt come to mind. Losing 2 Decays would allow me to improve the manabase and free up a slot for a flex card like Preordain for even more consistency!

[Stevestamopz]

If you look at Zenith for Goyf as being the same exact mana for Ponder -> Goyf, then you realise it's not as bad as a 3 mana Goyf sounds. Sure, this plays into Spell Pierce where Ponder -> Goyf doesn't but that's about it. I almost didn't even play Leovold but figured that it was worth it for the jokes. It turned out to never be useful but I didn't exactly play against any insane Leovold matchups either.

As for truths vs Library/Preordain, I just like drawing cards man. I like drawing em now and 3 cards for 3 life is a pretty good deal. Like, the sudden burst of cards in a delver deck isn't something opponents are ready for and is certainly not something that the slow filtering of preordain can replicate.

Perhaps it's a meta thing, but having maindeck Abrupt Decay is the main reason I moved back to BURG from Grixis

[Qweerios]

Why Ponder into Goyf if you can just Goyf? If you want a Ponder effect play Preordain and if you want a 4th Goyf play a 4th Goyf, right? The whole premise behind GSZ in my list is about having Mongoose available without actually having to draw into multiple Mongoose at the wrong time (GY tension and matchups). GSZ is already pretty narrow and niche in my list, I find it hard to justify without Mongoose is all.

Drawing cards in Delver is amazing as we saw with Treasure Cruise. Paying 2-3 mana and 2-3 life for extra cards however is not something I NEED to do in every matchup. The most common way to lose a game in the Legacy format is not to have the right card at the right time. Losing because you ran out of cards to play while your opponent still has many cards ahead of you is a rare scenario that only occurs in a handful of Matchups like Czech Pile and Miracles. Consistency is more important than quantity. There is a big difference between keeping a 1-lander with Preordain and having to mulligan with Whisper and Truths. Even in the advent that you have 2 lands you are at ease with Preordain but potentially at risk with Truths/Whisper. When paying life for cards matters, Library will act as a delayed Truths (Truths is already delayed by its mana cost) and continue to provide a flow of quality cards with the added bonus of providing additional cards if life is gained (StP).

I think there is a fundamental difference in our approaches to the deck as you seem to view BURG as Grixis with Decay where I see RUG with DRS and Decay. Neither Grixis nor RUG needs Decay mainboard right now and Shroud creatures are at a premium. Decay effects are good but the cost is non-trivial for a Delver deck with Bolts. RUG benefits from those busted DRS openers and answers to Gurmag, TNN, Marrit Lage and Blood Moon. Grixis is already hyper efficient with its Pyro/Gurmag/Probe package. I feel like you either view BURG as a downgrade from Grixis or an upgrade from RUG...

[Stevestamopz]

I think there is a fundamental difference in our approaches to the deck as you seem to view BURG as Grixis with Decay where I see RUG with DRS and Decay.

I agree with your above quote, so perhaps there's no point to this discussion.

I was very happy with GSZ being the 4th Goyf/5th DRS/2nd Leo that also flipped Delver. The point is as I said above, was to just fill my deck with proactive shit. I never said that my list was the best, I just found it to be surprisingly good at being an aggro-control deck. Like Zenith was a joke I stole off you and I was legitimately blown away by how good it was the whole night. Tfw you Zenith for a Goyf and then your next drawstep is another Goyf. Pretty good bruh.

I 100% believe the Bob Huang Grixis Delver list to be the best deck in Legacy. I just don't care to play it.

[Qweerios]

Grixis is indeed very good in part because of its high velocity and synergy. It can go fast, wide, and big. It also has weaknesses though like it doesn't generate card advantage and can't answer certain permanents. Personally I believe BURG to be on par with grixis. The die roll has always been the most deciding factor whenever I play Delver mirrors. BURG is my Delver deck of choice when I am on the draw as we have plenty of ways to weather the storm. Goyf is still a headach for Grixis and Mongoose is steady. If we can match Gurmag and survive the Wasteland/Delver/DRS/Daze onslaught then we can leverage our creatures. Figuring out the right threat combination is a project in itself.

Here's what I really like about BURG:

You take a RUG deck, cut the 3rd Volc and one of the flex counters for 2 USea. This gives you DRS over Stifle, easier casting cost on your essential Dismembers (some RUG lists went as far as playing 2 copies), and great SB options that shore your worst matchups like Decay for Chalice/Moon/RiP/Goyf, Edicts for Lage/TNN/Eldrazi, Golgari for TNN/Mom/Thalia/Warrens/RiP/Moon, and Blossom as an insane 2 mana PW for grindy matchups. The inclusion of DRS and the 19th land then allows you to include a couple 3drops like TNN and Leo. The maindeck is still RUG, just bigger and stronger. Then it's up to you to balance your Mongoose/Goyf/Gurmag/Mandrill/Leo/TNN suite as you desire and still have a couple of flex slots for your spells. Mongoose remains the defining card from RUG and we get to take full advantage of it if we wish.

[theMonster]

Went 3-1 last night at my weekly, getting wrenched by DnT, beating MUD, then eking out close ones against BUG Delver and Czech Pile. The list I played does not represent what I think is optimal or what I would register at a major event; it was a product of me wanting to test cards and explore angles I hadn't tried in a Delver deck before. Here's what I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Chart a Course
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrade
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Perilous Voyage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Winter Orb

Some explanations and observations:

- The GSZ was OK. It felt a little clunky, but what I liked more than getting a threat was the shuffle effect. I got to shuffle with Sylvan Library out in one game, and I got to shuffle post-Brainstorm in another.
- Mongoose was both great and terrible, as predicted. It gets blanked by unchecked Deathrites and opposing fatties, but with four (pseudo five with GSZ) shroud threats, you can win lots of the attrition games. I like the current number.
- Never got to cast Chart a Course, but I wanted to try a card advantage spell that didn't cost me life while having the added benefit of pitching to Force in the game 1s that aren't about card advantage. Since the threat density in this build is higher than in, say, RUG or even BUG, I thought I would be attacking often enough to make Chart a Course a straight-up draw-two. At worst it fuels threshold by discarding a situational card. Unfortunately I never got to find out.
- Since I went down to a single Decay, I could probably get away with changing the Badlands to a Volcanic, but I dunno, I like having three black sources, especially in the postboard games. Deathrite needs to be a threat. I might try the Sea/Taiga configuration (and play Misty-s over Deltas) just to compare the two.
- Dismember was great, killing Goyfs and Delve threats and allowing my Mongoose to attack unimpeded for at least two additional turns. I think it's a must in the maindeck.
- Leovold ... no idea what to make of this card in these Delver decks. It's undeniably powerful if it sticks, but it's three mana, can be answered by every removal spell in the format, and is only OK in combat. I don't want to pay to 2-for-1, but I also want to try to prevent my opponent from finding answers. It's a bit better with a GSZ in the list, but I dunno, I'm torn. What's been everyone else's experiences with Leo?
- Only saw Bitterblossom off a Sylvan Library when I was in turns with Czech Pile, but I think it would've been good had I seen it in the early game. I also tried it against BUG Delver but never drew it. I figured the lack of Bolts and only "tall" threats meant I could only lose 1 life a turn instead of 4 or 5 from a Goyf/Tombstalker. In theory, if an opponent deals with Bitterblossom, Goyfs are enormous.
- Abrade was solid if not unspectacular. I value its versatility.
- Perilous Voyage is normally the second Edict for me, but as someone who plays TurboDepths regularly, I've found that the Marit Lage decks can play around Edict. Depths plays sideboard Arbor/Factory and has Safekeepers lying around; Lands began to adopt Safekeepers and Excavators out of the board. So I wanted a card that can deal with both Marit Lage and stuff like Chalice or bounce pesky blockers to allow me to punch in the last few points of damage. I think the card is narrow but potentially decent. The scry 2 was sweet.
- Winter Orb was pretty bad, though I didn't play an UW decks or Lands.

Overall, the deck was a blast to play, but I still have no idea how to build it!

Thanks for reading, y'all.

[Qweerios]

It's great to see you test a similar list! Glad to see you did well against Czech and BUG Delver because those are both difficult matchups. BUG is basically the same deck but with all the tools to beat the mirror. Czech is pretty good considering we are playing a Delver deck. I can see why DnT gave you some trouble though as I don't think your SB was ready for it (I don't think Thoughtseize is very good here and I don't bring Edicts at all). I play against DnT and Maverick/Junk decks a lot and I rarely lose a set. My current boarding plan for DnT is -4 FoW -2 Pierce for +2 Decay +1 Charm +1 Grudge +1 Library +1 Needle.

Chart a Course is a card I would love to get feedback on because I often consider it over Preordain. It sounds great as a pseudo Brainstorm effect and Threshold enabler. I am afraid it won't be as good as a 9th CMC1 cantrip though... I highly value consistency in deck-building and really don't like mulligans in general.

I decided to move Decay to the SB entirely (over KCommand and Counterspell) and made room for Dismember#2, Preordain, and turned Badlands into Volcanic#2. Now the deck doesn't require black pre-board for anything other than DRS activations and a single Leo. I think playing only 2 black sources is possible as demonstrated by Grixis. I just have to make sure my boarding plans don't involve too many black cards for Wasteland matchups.

My experience with Leo as a 1-2of has been that the second copy is clunky and overall bad in the deck and that the first copy offers a unique dynamic to the board. It's very difficult to justify playing 0 copies of Leo if you can cast him in your deck. Leo has won me games against SnT and Shardless that I simply wouldn't have won if I didn't plan my plays according to my opening Leo. I don't think GSZ is a good enough reason to include Leo but it's always good to have him available against grindy decks that could land a Jace or simply against Elves. I wouldn't fault anybody for omitting Leo altogether... We could always use more Goyfs!

Bitterblossom is extremely narrow and only shines against decks that apply no pressure on your life total. I wouldn't play it against BUG Delver, especially with the possibility of getting it Decayed and being overrun by giant Goyfs that you just can't Dismember or fight with combat math/Bolts/DRS. Sylvan Library is fine though because the life loss is optional and finding cards puts more pressure than a 1/1 each turn. Blossom is the narrowest card in my SB and could easily be replaced by a more generic combo/control card like Counterspell. I literally only bring it in against Czech/Grixis Comtrol and Miracles which are represented in my meta by good players.

Perilous Voyage is interresting and I have no experience with the card. However, I don't think I'd want it against Chalice decks. It seems to me like a concession to Marrit Lage. I will admit that I too find Edict a bit underwhelming but it's simply my only out to certain board states that I have to keep a similar effect in my SB. Even Repeal would be better as a Lage/Chalice bounce... What do you think about Far // Away? It can still act as an Edict against Eldrazi and slower TNN decks while being a great answer to Marrit Lage and certain Reanimator threats.

As for Abrade and Orb I think you can do way more with your SB. I find Abrade underwhelming and Orb too narrow. The only really good application for Abrade is against DnT with 4 Mirran Crusader. Then again, if that was a concern I wouldn't simply pack a Dread of Night...

Looking forward to some more observations if you choose to pick up the deck again!

[theMonster]

It's great to see you test a similar list! Glad to see you did well against Czech and BUG Delver because those are both difficult matchups. BUG is basically the same deck but with all the tools to beat the mirror. Czech is pretty good considering we are playing a Delver deck. I can see why DnT gave you some trouble though as I don't think your SB was ready for it (I don't think Thoughtseize is very good here and I don't bring Edicts at all). I play against DnT and Maverick/Junk decks a lot and I rarely lose a set. My current boarding plan for DnT is -4 FoW -2 Pierce for +2 Decay +1 Charm +1 Grudge +1 Library +1 Needle.

Chart a Course is a card I would love to get feedback on because I often consider it over Preordain. It sounds great as a pseudo Brainstorm effect and Threshold enabler. I am afraid it won't be as good as a 9th CMC1 cantrip though... I highly value consistency in deck-building and really don't like mulligans in general.

I decided to move Decay to the SB entirely (over KCommand and Counterspell) and made room for Dismember#2, Preordain, and turned Badlands into Volcanic#2. Now the deck doesn't require black pre-board for anything other than DRS activations and a single Leo. I think playing only 2 black sources is possible as demonstrated by Grixis. I just have to make sure my boarding plans don't involve too many black cards for Wasteland matchups.

My experience with Leo as a 1-2of has been that the second copy is clunky and overall bad in the deck and that the first copy offers a unique dynamic to the board. It's very difficult to justify playing 0 copies of Leo if you can cast him in your deck. Leo has won me games against SnT and Shardless that I simply wouldn't have won if I didn't plan my plays according to my opening Leo. I don't think GSZ is a good enough reason to include Leo but it's always good to have him available against grindy decks that could land a Jace or simply against Elves. I wouldn't fault anybody for omitting Leo altogether... We could always use more Goyfs!

Bitterblossom is extremely narrow and only shines against decks that apply no pressure on your life total. I wouldn't play it against BUG Delver, especially with the possibility of getting it Decayed and being overrun by giant Goyfs that you just can't Dismember or fight with combat math/Bolts/DRS. Sylvan Library is fine though because the life loss is optional and finding cards puts more pressure than a 1/1 each turn. Blossom is the narrowest card in my SB and could easily be replaced by a more generic combo/control card like Counterspell. I literally only bring it in against Czech/Grixis Comtrol and Miracles which are represented in my meta by good players.

Perilous Voyage is interresting and I have no experience with the card. However, I don't think I'd want it against Chalice decks. It seems to me like a concession to Marrit Lage. I will admit that I too find Edict a bit underwhelming but it's simply my only out to certain board states that I have to keep a similar effect in my SB. Even Repeal would be better as a Lage/Chalice bounce... What do you think about Far // Away? It can still act as an Edict against Eldrazi and slower TNN decks while being a great answer to Marrit Lage and certain Reanimator threats.

As for Abrade and Orb I think you can do way more with your SB. I find Abrade underwhelming and Orb too narrow. The only really good application for Abrade is against DnT with 4 Mirran Crusader. Then again, if that was a concern I wouldn't simply pack a Dread of Night...

Looking forward to some more observations if you choose to pick up the deck again!

Certainly valid points, Qweerios. I'm going to test more in the coming weeks and see what I find.

Again, going into the weekly, I wanted to play cards that I wasn't too familiar with to see how good or bad they were. I haven't registered Winter Orb since Top Miracles was prevalent, so I wanted to see how it stacked up against New Miracles and Lands if we were to get paired. Bitterblossom, I agree, seems like it's strictly for Miracles and Pile. If I were to be paired up against TurboDepths, I would also try it on the play at an FNM just to see if the tokens help at all. Of course they can just Sejiri Steppe once and punch through all of them, so it's definitely not a bulletproof solution or anything. My sideboard also is normally better equipped to tackle small creature strategies, and I've almost always got a Needle in there, too. Just wanted to try some other cards. Now that I've got a better idea of what I like and don't like, I can make a real pass at a list.

I think we're in a metagame where we need a card that can deal with Marit Lage directly. Repeal and Far // Away seem viable. Some RUG lists are on Dead // Gone because it can kill Deathrite or bounce Marit Lage. But three mana for Gone is a ton, and I think Marit Lage decks are too fast to rely on a three-mana answer. Plus it requires red, so I'd rather lean on a blue spell. In terms of dedicated Marit Lage hate (which would come at the expense of one of the two Edicts, I guess?), Repeal is probably the strongest card, but it seems incredibly narrow. I might try Far // Away or keep testing Perilous Voyage. With Decays and Dismember(s), I should be OK against some previously problematic creatures like TKS, Smasher, Knight, etc. I don't love Edict against Grixis or Show and Tell because of Pyromancer and Griselbrand draw-seven, respectively. So perhaps only one dedicated Edict effect is enough, especially with Charm for opposing TNNs.

I think the deck's got merit, though. The blue fair matchups are always gonna be tricky because 4C doesn't do anything necessarily better than the others in the mirror (except for probably having more shroud threats). Thanks for the input, and I'll let you know how testing goes.

[Qweerios]

I forgot to mention it but I did get to test Blossom against Turbo Depths and it is a great card there. It gave me a win even through Tabernacle. I also recount my opponent telling me how difficult it was for him to figure out a way through. Blossom definitely shines against Miracle, Czech, and Depths.

I completely agree with you that we need a dedicated answer to Lage in that Edict slot. I also don't like Edict against Grixis and SnT but I will bring them in against Reanimator, Eldrazi, and DeathBlade/Stoneblade/Deathbant decks with 3+ TNN (over Daze on the draw vs. Noble+DRS, and over 2 Wastelands vs. 5+ basics). Bounce effects work great against Reanimator and Lage but won't cut it against TNN and Eldrazis. I would even make a case for Echoing Truth over Voyage because it has blowout potential against decks that go off on Empty the Warrens.

[blablub]

Regarding your Midrangey-List i would cut the Pierces as well because your tempo plan is allready weaker. I feel this List needs 1 or 2 Snapcaster, maybe over the Levold? if you are running a Zenith i would try to get 1off Nimble Mongoose in the 75s. Maybe a Library is also playable :)

[Qweerios]

@blablub

What makes you believe this deck is "midrangey"? It has an extremely low curve (arguably lower than Grixis) and has all the features of a tempo-oriented deck.

How would Snapcaster benefit the deck if we cut Pierce? Why cut Pierce in the first place? It's an amazing card for any Delver/DRS/Bolt/Daze deck that wishes to have quality interraction. I wouldn't fault anybody for going up to 3 copies even. I could see Snap over Leovold but I don't think Snap is nearly as good as Leo#1.

Library is definitely a playable card in any deck that can play it. I swear by Library in certain matchups which is why it's in my SB.

I understand what you are saying but I don't understand why...

Edit: on an unrelated note I think I found a suitable tech to replace the Edict/Voyage slot. A pair of Ghost Quarters would be great to bring in against Lands/Depths, Eldrazi, and even against Grixis/Team America. This would make the Loam plan more reliable as well. Especially against decks that play 1-2 basic lands we get to completely deny their mana once they've fetched their only basics to play around waste-loam.

[Stevestamopz]

I sort of get what blablub is saying (any Delver deck without Stifle doesn't really feel like a tempo deck to me), but we need a minimum of 2 Spell Pierces to even have a chance Game 1 against Storm or Apes.dec. So yeah, while Spell Pierce is worse in this deck than Canadian, it's still a good card that you need to have.

In other news, a friend of mine from interstate made top 8 at a 30 player event playing this 4c list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18568&d=315616&f=LE

@Qweerios: Ghost Quarter sounds like pretty good tech actually. Nice duress turbo-depths. Inb4 they just draw multiple needles and ignore it all the same

[blablub]

I sort of get what blablub is saying (any Delver deck without Stifle doesn't really feel like a tempo deck to me)

this was my point ;)

do you think you can win against a good storm-pilot with 2 pierces and a bunch of 3-mana-spells?, i feel that i wanna give up on that MU and just play more bombs to totally crush all fair MUs. In general i allways feel that spell pierce does basicly nothing :D

what is ape.dec? :D

[Stevestamopz]

this was my point ;)

do you think you can win against a good storm-pilot with 2 pierces and a bunch of 3-mana-spells?, i feel that i wanna give up on that MU and just play more bombs to totally crush all fair MUs. In general i allways feel that spell pierce does basicly nothing :D

what is ape.dec? :D

Pre-board it's not great but you can still just Delver them or counter their early cantrips and then try and Zenith/cast Leo. Postboard it gets a lot better.

Ape.dec is any A + B combo deck, whether it's Show and Tell or Reanimator or Chalice/Blood Moon decks. Spell Pierce is basically always a hard counter against Show and Tell and I really hate that deck.

[Qweerios]

I recently sold my Goyfs and Forces and I didn't have replacements for this week so I played a sub-par list. I tried 4 Mongoose and 4 Stifles for funsies and it went poorly. Both of those cards were garbage all day and undoubtedly caused several losses. Here's the list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

2 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Islamd
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB
2 Ghost Quarters
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle


0-2 vs. Junk... Rusty player making lots of missplays. Doesn't matter G1 I flood, have worthless Stifles and Mongoose can't reach Threshold. G2 I mulligan and eat an Hymn.

Bye... End up playing funsies against Maverick splash Leo. Again, Stifle is worthless against mana dorks and Thalia and Mongoose can't reach threshold. Shroud is irrelevant here again. I don't have enough threats for this matchup.

1-2 vs. Punishing Maverick... I win G1 off 4 Wastelands. G2 I get wrecked by Thalia and KotR holding Stifles. G3 I eat recurring Wastes and Bojuka Bogs from Ramunap Excavator cutting me off red and black while my 2 Mongeese never reach Threshold.

2-1 vs. Sneak n Show... Stifle was good here as I had lots of time to set up under no pressure. My opponent mulls to 5 in G1 and I hit 2 fetches with Stifle G2. Oddly enough I won the only match where having 4 Forces was essential. Delver didn't flip in 5 turns but Mongoose did reach threshold this time...

This sample was pretty skewed towards Maverick-ish decks. Mongoose is definitely not a card I would want 4-of in a deck anymore. Stifle is too passive for my taste and is the definition of win-more. Stifle is only good at keeping you ahead and won't help you crawl back in any way. There was a situation where I wished I had Badlands available postboard for Decay but then again I did keep two 1-land hands with a Volcanic and a Brainstorm. I do miss the protection from Wasteland that Badlands provides as a 3rd Land. Unfortunately I didn't get to test Ghost Quarters this time around.

[blablub]

Guys, how would you build your Delverdeck if you want to beat the classic grixis-delver deck? Maybe the 4 Gurmag Angler Variant? im looking at you Steve and your Team-Australia ;) What about Ben Friedman Snapcaster-List? http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eck-Guide.html (on bottom)

[JackaBo]

Guys, how would you build your Delverdeck if you want to beat the classic grixis-delver deck? Maybe the 4 Gurmag Angler Variant? im looking at you Steve and your Team-Australia ;) What about Ben Friedman Snapcaster-List? http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eck-Guide.html (on bottom)

Anglers are not great versus pyromancer. Isn't UR delver favored in delver mirrors?

[Stevestamopz]

Guys, how would you build your Delverdeck if you want to beat the classic grixis-delver deck? Maybe the 4 Gurmag Angler Variant? im looking at you Steve and your Team-Australia ;) What about Ben Friedman Snapcaster-List? http://www.starcitygames.com/article...eck-Guide.html (on bottom)

I miss when Team Aus was good :( I might try and brew with it for a sanctioned I've got coming up but I honestly feel like BURG just does the Team Aus thing better. What all Delver decks need are proper 2 drops IMO. Goyf just fills this role so nicely in BURG.

Playing multiple Golgari Charms (and even 1 main as per the primer) sounds pretty good. I still like Deluge for it's ability to crush DnT and Elves but G.charm is far better against Delver.dec

Re: Friedo's list - I hate Thoughtseize in this meta, let alone 3 maindeck. It's just absolutely horrendous deckbuilding when the best deck by miles is a fair blue tempo deck and the 2nd best deck just replaces Delver with Strix. It doesn't even help our bad matchups in this meta (Lands and Turbo-Depths) so why bother. /rant

Other than that the list seems fine but also not where I want to be. It straddles the line too much between being Pile and Delver which is a bit non-committal for my liking. I also imagine it would get run over by Huang delver and over-powered by Pile so why bother.
I really really loved his lists during the Miracles era but I don't think his list is any good at the minute.

This is where I'm at with BURG:

//Creature (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf

//Enchantment (1)
1 Seal of Fire

//Instant (21)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (6)
1 Night's Whisper
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Land (19)
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge