Originally Posted by MGB
I couldn't disagree more with a 4 Jace build, 4 Counterspell build. Counterspell actually has been pretty slow (especially on the draw) and I often dread having them in certain matchups and recently just went from 3 to 2. I think you underestimate the power of Snapcaster Mage when all your relevant spells cost U or R or W. Actually just dropping Snapcaster as a 2/1 EOT then following it up with a Standstill provides a lot of pressure. The card just does so much for the deck and I think it's exactly where you want to be. Jace on the other hand I think could be good in a straight up UW shell, but based off experience playing in this metagame (delver, shardless bug, show and tell, etc), I almost always shuffled Jace away via brainstorm fetches because I feel so vunerable on the tap out or get blown out by a daze, etc.
Bloodmoon as a suggestion for the board is probably one of the most unplayable ideas I have ever heard of for a "Landstill" deck. The whole purpose is to get ahead on the board, then aggressively drop a Standstill with manland/snapcaster beat down, or even crucible wasteland lock.
Jace is not that good if you have counterspell instead of ma na drain.
And this vintage build has troubles with creature decks in vintage. It would be horible in Legacy.
On the contrary, it is one of the best decks in Vintage vs. creatures. Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Pyroclasm, and Jace all combine to give it very good game vs creature decks (in Vintage - those are basically the Human Caverns decks, creature-heavy Workshop builds, and BUG Tarmogoyf lists).
Jace is ALWAYS good, no matter what countermagic you are playing. Is it easier to cast Jace when you play Mana Drain? Of course, but that doens't mean it's bad without Drain. I mean, it's obviously played in Legacy control decks already. It is probably one of the best 5 blue cards ever printed and in some situations (later in the game) I would rather have Jace than even Ancestral Recall.
You are vastly overrating Snapcaster Mage.
Every time you play a Snapcaster Mage you are basically adding mana cost to one of your answers. A flashbacked Counterspell becomes a 1UUU counter. A flashbacked Lightning Bolt becomes a 1UR bolt. A flashbacked Brainstorm becomes a 1UU Brainstorm. Etc. The only advantage Snapcaster gives you is the 2/1 body, which for a control deck often becomes irrelevant. The situations in which you play Snapcaster Mage and then Standstill right after it are less frequent than the situations in which you need a cheaper answer - a R Bolt instead of a 1UR Bolt. And not only is the cost a factor, but Snapcaster needs the right answers in your graveyard. How can you be sure that the answer you need is going to be there? If you simply play more anwers in place of the Snapcasters, you are ensured more applicable answers. When I need a counterspell, I'd rather have a Counterspell in my hand than a Snapcaster in hand and a Lightning Bolt and a Brainstorm in my graveyard.
Snapcaster Mage is a good creature but belongs in tempo aggro-control lists. Not in more heavy control decks like Landstill.
Snapcaster is amazing with pyroclasms. Amazing.
i agree it's too strong to not be played.
Fire walk with me.
Played the deck again at the weekly local, having a much better 3-1 result this time. 0-2 against Burn, then 2-0 against UR Nivmagus Delver Burn, 2-0 against BG Loam Pox, and 2-1 against Mono U OmniClash.
List was:
Maindeck (60)
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Vendillion Clique
It seems I have unconsciously settled on Shockwave's list, or near enough to it. One wonders what the point of this thread was...
Anyway, I like how the list played. You really have to tempo it, though, being very selective with Wasteland and Stifle to cut the opponent off their key colour and finish with the beaters while you have the chance. One thing I like is that the combo matchup is heaps better than any other Landstill build I have played. I expect only Dreadstill would be better. At the beginning of the night I was thinking that perhaps I would give Dreadstill a run, but I will stick with this for now. It is indeed a blast to play.
Last edited by pandaman; 09-24-2013 at 05:57 PM.
I have a favour to ask: if anyone knows how to get in contact with xShockwaveX, who has been playing the hell out of this deck on MODO, could they let me know? I don't know if he posts here, but I have heard he posts on The Mana Drain. I am on there as pandaman also. Thanks in advance!
This deck dies to a single Aether Vial. Also, Cavern of Souls is a real card and blanks out a large chunk of your deck.
Not sure how you're going to handle any creature decks.
Personally, I don't think Jace is necessary in this type of landstill (+1 crucible of worlds). I'm not too sure if 4 snapcaster is good, but I like it. You might consider trimming either a conclave or wasteland for tolaria west as well. It makes your singleton explosives at least tutorable.
I guess it depends on the metagame, but I have been loving MD pyroclasms.
4 Snapcaster is good. Even Turn 2 EOT Snapcaster into Turn 3 Standstill is a really good play. It just gets better when you have stuff to flash back. Because of how this deck plans to win (manlands) I don't know if cutting a Conclave is a smart idea. But I will try and test it.
Vial is indeed tough. However, if you bring in 2 EE postboard you have three of them to deal with Vial, and as Vial decks are usually creature decks, Pyroclasm helps enormously.
Cavern of Souls isn't played that much at the moment, to my understanding? Maybe as a 1-of in Maverick, D&T, but a full 4-of in MUD. Even so, I have 4 Wasteland and Crucible to recur them, so I am not as concerned about it as I am about Vial, which is almost always played as a 4-of.
Handling creature decks is a matter of bringing in 2 EE, 3 Pyroclasm, and making setting up Crucible of Worlds/Factory blocks a priority. I will admit that it's difficult, though, and you have to play tight. There is a list posted earlier that has 3 StP maindeck and 1 sideboard, which I am also considering.
i put together something embarrassing for tonight's weekly tournament in a similar vein—but running countertop. i think the standstill route is better; my answer to creatures was 2 maindeck bonfires. even non-miracle cost is decent for 1?
@warfordium on twitter.
Bonfire is good because it is scale-able, but bad because it targets and can therefore me Diverted or Misdirected. As I am not running SDT I think I will stick with Pyroclasm/Firespout.
As an aside, the faces people make when I slam a Standstill at the Legacy local have been priceless :)
I am going to make a couple of changes to my list:
Maindeck
-1 Misty Rainforest +1 Faerie Conclave (taking the manland count to 7)
-1 Counterspell +1 Spell Snare (taking the Snare count to 4)
-1 Snapcaster Mage +1 Vendillion Clique
Sideboard
-2 Flusterstorm +1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Red Elemental Blast
Grinding it with some testing this weekend, at the weekly on Tuesday next week, and then Friday is GP Brisbane (Australia) Legacy Side Event with an English Moat as first prize - I wanna take it out!
Clique was great in the combo matchup, taking an Intuition and putting my opponent in topdeck mode while I got in for 5 per turn. Won the turn before my opponent went off. With Defense Grid on the battlefield since Turn 1! I think with the SnT decks playing Defense Grid as their counter-hate, 3 Clique after sideboarding will be very useful.
I think I also need 4 Relic for dealing with Goyf and Knight, as xShockwaveX has done.
So blue and red... with Standstill. The first thing that really comes to mind is Grim Lavamancer. I mean, against the meta wouldn't a Lavamancer followed by Standstill be devastating? I'd also think Snapcaster as a backup creature and threat would be pretty sick, maybe Clique EoT followed by Standstill? Those are my thoughts. I think the Lavamancer over Pyroclasm because it does much the same thing while putting you at an advantage under Standstill.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Got in a good solid testing session against Shardless BUG earlier this afternoon. My first time playing against the 1G colossus that is Tarmogoyf. 4 Snare and 1 Explosives is not enough to stop it. Post board is scary even with Relic, Pyroclasm and Explosives coming in. Going to do some more post boarding against it tomorrow and make a call on changes. As previously stated in the thread, Swords to Plowshares may be required in some number.
I thought the same thing about goofy/knight—my thoughts have turned to 2x dismember or 2x repeal. repeal has other applications...
@warfordium on twitter.
I would like to avoid the third colour. But the problem is that Goyf and Knight are so often out of Dismember range as soon as they come down. Goyf was 7/8 last night on Turn 4 or 5, because of Standstill and Shardless Agent and Jace... StP is the answer that first comes to mind SK I will run with it first and test other answers later.
With the possibility of going U/R/w for StP...
What do you think about 4x Figure of Destiny? Turn1 Figure, Turn2 Standstill... now they're in a predicament, break Standstill or let you sit and turn him into a 4/4 spirit warrior in a couple turns.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
It's "win-more" to play a creature that doesn't answer things like snapcaster does. If you have standstill out then you're doing well anyhow and the manlands are a better wincon.
I think this deck wants to play almost all "answer" cards and very few others (standstill and cow).
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