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Thread: MonoBlue Belcher

  1. #41

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    I've been running the following list and love it. There are so many D7 effects it's just unreal. I have found Grim Monolith's value to decline as your quantity of D7 cards increase. It's far more important to hit U2 than 3. If your opponent isn't playing counterspells, playing this deck is about as lopsided as it gets. Even the MUD matchup is now strongly in my favor.

    Oath is currently my worst matchup.

    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Pact of Negation
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Chrome Mox
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    3 Mox Opal
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    3 Preordain
    3 Expedition Map
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Grim Monolith
    1 Time Walk
    1 Time Vault
    4 Day's Undoing
    1 Timetwister
    1 Windfall
    4 Leyline of Anticipation
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Force of Will
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Mind's Desire

    I would consider changing the 4th Chrome Mox to a 4th Mox Opal, if I had it, but I do feel 3 is the right number with so many D7. The weakest links, if you can believe it, are Lion's Eye Diamond, Memory Jar, Expedition Map #3, and Mind's Desire in that order. Tinker/Blightsteel are in the sideboard right now.

    It's time to give the sideboard an overhaul.

  2. #42
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    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    What would happen if you added Gifts Ungiven into this deck to add more tutors and reduce Charbelchers down to 1? Why not play Tinker -> Belcher or Jar or Vault-Key?
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  3. #43
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    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    What would happen if you added Gifts Ungiven into this deck to add more tutors and reduce Charbelchers down to 1? Why not play Tinker -> Belcher or Jar or Vault-Key?
    danny batterman was playing U/g belcher at vintage champs with living wish / land grant, and academy in the sb.

  4. #44

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    What would happen if you added Gifts Ungiven into this deck to add more tutors and reduce Charbelchers down to 1? Why not play Tinker -> Belcher or Jar or Vault-Key?
    I can understand your reasoning for Tinker. I do not understand your thought process behind reducing Charbelcher to 1 copy. Would you please elaborate?

    Also, with the addition of 4 D7's at U2, Jar is pretty overcosted.

    I will consider Gifts piles and see if it merits playtesting. :)

  5. #45
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    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by phyrex1 View Post
    I can understand your reasoning for Tinker. I do not understand your thought process behind reducing Charbelcher to 1 copy. Would you please elaborate?

    Also, with the addition of 4 D7's at U2, Jar is pretty overcosted.

    I will consider Gifts piles and see if it merits playtesting. :)
    By keeping Tinker in the maindeck, you have a 5th Draw 7 for . Also, if you ever just have Tinker + mana, you win with Belcher too. Six mana would not be enough with Belcher alone. Now, I'm not sure how often those scenarios come up, but reducing Charbelcher and replacing it with tutors helps to meet that gap.
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  6. #46

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    By keeping Tinker in the maindeck, you have a 5th Draw 7 for . Also, if you ever just have Tinker + mana, you win with Belcher too. Six mana would not be enough with Belcher alone. Now, I'm not sure how often those scenarios come up, but reducing Charbelcher and replacing it with tutors helps to meet that gap.
    You have only mentioned Gifts in your tutors list, and Gifts allows you to pick up to four unique cards, of which, the opponent bins two.

    So let's try this. What cards, up to four, do you pick? Create as many Gifts piles as you like. I'll bin two cards from each pile.

  7. #47

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Played a Leyline Belcher at MKM Prague

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Timetwister
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Preordain
    1 Tinker
    4 Expedition Map
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Ponder
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Windfall
    3 Pact of Negation
    4 Day's Undoing
    4 Leyline of Anticipation
    4 Force of Will
    1 Mind's Desire
    1 Time walk
    1 Senseis Divining top (never drawn)
    1 Mystical Tutor (irrelevant in goldfish, decent RL)


    SB:
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Mental Misstep
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    2 Rebuild
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    3 Grafdiggers Cage
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

    first of all, I'm not a vintage player - I've gathered different lists, and goldfished phyrex1's list extensively - which resulted in these conclusions - absence of initial U mana is the major problem of the deck causing painful mulligans (despite that the goldfish was at 2,1T / 6,15 cards / 9% fizzle of game going T4+ ), key+vault is clunky and unimpressive, once 2U is assembled the deck is king of the world... which resulted into cutting key vault, tezzeret and monolith(s) in favor of maxing out on mana sources, small testing session before the event confirmed my suspision the deck is incredibly powerful and fun to play with as I 7:0 my friends after 2 games lost to mulligans vs. mono counter hands of theirs... before the tournament for the fisrt time in my life I had more SB slots than cards I wanted to put in so it contains fillers I never used, Mystical Tutor and SDT are last minute inclusions from a group of Brainstorm, Rebuild (mainly as a "ritual" fx), Mystical tutor and SDT

    R1 - Doomsday 2:1
    G1 mull into unimpressive 4, dead T3
    G2 the games blur together, a T1/T2 kill just before he's about to kill me including some leyline action and Lotus/LED topdecks in one game or the other
    G3 the games blur together, a T1/T2 kill just before he's about to kill me including some leyline action and Lotus/LED topdecks in one game or the other


    R2 - pseudo-Mirror 1:2
    I have a suspision, my R1 was very fast, i was scouting a bit but haven't seen this guy
    G1 he starts, goes for T1 Belcher and I Fow, my T2 is more succesful
    G2 the most ridiculous game possible... - I start with some upkeep action due to Leyline, he plays out his mana and maybe I Fow something, I have a T1 Belcher, he BSes into the nuts T2 - Tezzeret+Belcher+Activation ... the countdown is a thriller and just when the light dies for me and I'm about to pack my cards he reveals Academy - 16, 1 short of killing me... in my upkeep in resp. to Crypt trigger I activate my Belcher... do I have to say what is my 20th card?
    G3 I keep a leyline 7 with double counter mox and bussiness but without U source, he goes to 5 and has 2 mox imprints at one point he tries a Jar - despite having the advantage of leyline I'm an idiot and Trap it, I cant find an U source while my Opp has a string of preordains at the end I have to FoW an Ancestral and his last card is obv. Belcher... my last draw doesn't help me and the Belcher does not whiff this time...

    very friendly person and a game hard not to remember

    R3 Dredge 2:0
    I know what he's on
    G1 I'm mono mana and Preordain which offers nothing, I topdeck into some action, twist and kill him
    G2 his double Bazaar < instant twisters

    R4 Shops 0:2
    Opp wins the roll, I know what he's on...
    G1 and I'm not the only one... he tells me a friend told him about a Belcher guy with my shirt... I have a potential T1 academy-> Twister I upkeep GP, he has double Shop, Golem, Thorn, Revoker, Pearl, Sphere.. correctly starts with a Thorn, to which I have to play all my Moxen, cantrip -> Map, which gets revokered, I'm a mana short off the Twister until 2 more Spheres and a Golem hit the field when I Twister for 6U off Lotus, I have to hit Academy+Belcher exactly, doesn't happen
    G2 criminal mistake again - I have a T1 Belcher off Academy (as realized later it wasnt needed to be searched for), get the Academy Striped and CotV 0, I have no U source and never will =dead ... some turn later I find out his hand contained also a Ratched bomb but he could't recall if it was in the opener or not... so I'll never know...

    R5 Oath 1:2
    G1 leyline action gets Missteped +Fow into T2-3 Oath ->draw 21
    G2 leyline again, some instant cantriping, I play a Mox -> in resp Stripmine ->in resp Twister -> in resp Grudge ->in resp Twister -> in resp double Fow proof Belcher
    G3 I see his hand which has Grudge, Mox, BS, Dack but no R available -> T1 Tinker for Belcher (Fow his BS) instead of Jar (another mistake, I really underestimate the Jar) he topdecks a fetch and I'm never in the game...

    R6 Tezzeret 2:1
    G1 - he starts with some fast mana and takes my T2 instead of me, in fact all of them
    G2 - T1 some action into Opp upkeep Twister, which gains a 0 lander to my Opponent, my turn Academy -> eot Twister gives me an instant win, literaly
    G3 - Opp mulls into oblivion, I upkeep some stuff again, Fow a T2 Thirst and decide to draw him a 7 a turn or 2 after eot, after some cantriping a tripple Fow proof Belcher ends the tournament...

    at first sight an unimpressive 3-3 but the deck felt awesome and I can attribute my losses only to my mistakes, inexpierience with the real game dynamics of the deck and Vintage in overall

  8. #48
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    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Glad to see you got yourself in on some Vintage action. It's definitely my favorite format, by far.

    Thing about Belcher is that, in my experience, you are not very well favored against most Blue strategies and very cold versus Workshops. I don't think it is very well suited to the Vintage meta-game. That said, with Thirst unrestricted, I think there is more play in this deck than previously. Did you try it with some number of Thirst?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  9. #49

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Glad to see you got yourself in on some Vintage action. It's definitely my favorite format, by far.

    Thing about Belcher is that, in my experience, you are not very well favored against most Blue strategies and very cold versus Workshops. I don't think it is very well suited to the Vintage meta-game. That said, with Thirst unrestricted, I think there is more play in this deck than previously. Did you try it with some number of Thirst?
    I get to play once/twice a year and I love it, unfortunately the Power train has left the station years ago for me...

    i did not have that feeling, I think the deck has enough bombs to overwhelm an U deck once it has mana available, the Shops MU is not great but better with CotV restriction, when the deck felt miserable was it's own incosistency on reaching initial U // why draw 3(2) when you can draw 7?

  10. #50

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    first of all, I'm not a vintage player - I've gathered different lists, and goldfished phyrex1's list extensively - which resulted in these conclusions - absence of initial U mana is the major problem of the deck causing painful mulligans (despite that the goldfish was at 2,1T / 6,15 cards / 9% fizzle of game going T4+ ), key+vault is clunky and unimpressive, once 2U is assembled the deck is king of the world... which resulted into cutting key vault, tezzeret and monolith(s) in favor of maxing out on mana sources, small testing session before the event confirmed my suspision the deck is incredibly powerful and fun to play with as I 7:0 my friends after 2 games lost to mulligans vs. mono counter hands of theirs... before the tournament for the fisrt time in my life I had more SB slots than cards I wanted to put in so it contains fillers I never used, Mystical Tutor and SDT are last minute inclusions from a group of Brainstorm, Rebuild (mainly as a "ritual" fx), Mystical tutor and SDT
    I think these filler cards should be a combination of Grim Monoliths and Voltaic Keys. The additional mana, while not blue, lends to the deck's explosive potential. I would also consider one Crucible of the Worlds in the sideboard vs Wasteland decks. Your Academy becomes a repeatable blue ritual.

    Thank you for giving my build a shot and run through! I'm pleased with your results and analysis. Vintage is a beast, but it is, by far, the most fun format of Magic. (And aside from power, the least expensive!)

    Quick Edit: Playing against the mirror matchup, it may be prudent to play your spells at the end of your opponent's turn rather than upkeep. I mention this because most Mono-U Charbelcher decks run Mind's Desire, and you may, unknowingly, add to your opponent's Storm count.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Glad to see you got yourself in on some Vintage action. It's definitely my favorite format, by far.

    Thing about Belcher is that, in my experience, you are not very well favored against most Blue strategies and very cold versus Workshops. I don't think it is very well suited to the Vintage meta-game. That said, with Thirst unrestricted, I think there is more play in this deck than previously. Did you try it with some number of Thirst?
    Starting the game with Leyline and possibly being able to win on T1 upkeep makes the Workshop matchup much more in our favor than not now, especially with the restriction of Chalice of the Void. Workshop hinges on eliminating its opponent's plays by preventing the opponent from playing artifact based mana. If you get the mana down first, you can usually fight through the early onslaught to secure the victory.

    But test it for yourself, and add the results to the sample set. A larger sample set is better. Let the data speak.

  11. #51
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    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    Hey there folks,

    In the last Catalan Vintage League (38 players, powered, non-proxied metagame, 6 Swiss rounds), I’ve 4-2’d, finishing 11th, with a build with a lower number of Draw 7s and 4 Thirst for Knowledges instead. My losses were 0-2 against Bomberman (he had double FoW for my FoW+Pact game 1, and I fizzled game 2 after turn 1 Gitaxian+Preordain+Thirst for Knowledge), and 1-2 against Gifts Control (if I recall correctly, I won easily game 1, and then I kept weak hands in games 2 and 3 so he didn’t have so much trouble in finishing me off). I won versus UR Delver twice (2-0 and 2-1, this one involving a really epic mulligan to 4 for my part), 2-1 versus GWB Hatebears and 2-0 vs Mono Blue Control (who kept a hand of triple FoW with no mana on game 2!). I managed to dodge the plague of MUDs that were swarming the tournament.

    For reference, here’s the list I’ve played:

    Maindeck:
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Brainstorm
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Expedition Map
    4 Force of Will
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Grim Monolith
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    3 Pact of Negation
    1 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Time Vault
    1 Timetwister
    1 Tinker
    2 Voltaic Key

    Sideboard:
    2 Mishra's Workshop
    3 Defense Grid
    2 Hurkyl's Recall
    4 Leyline of Anticipation
    3 Mental Misstep
    1 Rebuild

    I’ve decided to play Academy Belcher because the new mulligan rule and the restriction of Chalice of the Void are both factors that should make life easier for brave Belcher players. About Draw 7’s, I’ve never been too convinced that they belong to this deck; his cost is way too high (especially in the first couple of turns, precisely when the deck wants to win the game), and the perspective of giving a new seven to my opponent doesn’t make me happy. So the unrestriction of TfK gives the deck a new and powerful tool; more when usually we will have some artifacts in hand that we won’t need (extra Expedition Maps, Chrome Moxen without any card to imprint, etc).

    I’m overall satisfied with this decklist. I feel that maybe some Dismember in the side would be useful against annoying creatures like hatebears or Meddling Mage (a real pain in the ass). I’ve never played against Workshops yet, so I’m not sure about how will work our 2 own Workshops or the Leyines of Anticipation. Fortunately, Chalices are gone, and Golem doesn’t hurt us that much, so the threats are “only” the Spheres/Thorns and the Null Rods, which obviously are absolutely devastating. Another problem is always Mental Misstep, but we have our Gitaxian Probes, so we can gather information about the opponent’s hand (and we can always try to bait him to Misstep the wrong threat). Plus we have our own Missteps in the sideboard, though if I include Dismembers, probably Missteps will have to go.

    Thoughts?
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  12. #52

    Re: MonoBlue Belcher

    give us more!!!11

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