Interesting...
Very cool deck! Can you give pointers on sideboarding? How often do you fizzle or take more than 3 turns to win? I will likely chip in when I have something wortwhile to contribute, but the deck seems close to optimal.
Team R&D
Question: the Academy is the only land in the deck, how important is the untap effect from Time Spiral then? Time Reversal costs one less, but doesn't untap the one land in your deck.
You basically only fizzle when you mulligan to 4 or less. It takes a lot of practice to recognize keep-able hands though.Originally Posted by Mantis
Against blue control, usually I board in 1-2 hurykls 1-2 jace, but I'm not 100% on what is correct to take out. Usually I take out preordains but that could be wrong. If you see that they don't have needle / revoker you don't need to board at all, these are your good matchups
Against dredge it's mostly a race but you're faster and timetwister effects are amazing. watch out for discard and artifact removal.
The shops matchup is just miserable. You usually want to bring in 12-15 board cards on the draw (not sure if jace is correct), and 8-11 on the play (no leyline). Leyline lets you get going before they can sphere you out of the game, and tomb and hurkyls help you win long games. Remember you can belch men and not just opponents since you will have 5 lands in your deck - sometimes killing lodestone golem is more important that shooting your opponent for ~6. I usually take out all the counterspells and the weaker card draw (preordain, brainstorm), as well as desire since it is very hard to actually storm out.
Incredibly important. It usually nets mana since you can play out new artifacts you draw off spiral. Academy usually taps for 3-5 to cast spiral, then 10+ for the rest of the game. This is the most busted Academy deck I've ever played.
I got some testing against mostly blue control decks. I often flooded out on Belchers and the Pact of Negation did nothing for me, I replaced them with 2 Sensei's Tops and Time Walk. Often times, I was restrained on cheap artifacts to help get online the Mox Opal and build Academy mana. Furthermore, if we end up in an attrition war where Expedition Map gets Misstepped and we are light on mana sources, Top really helps out. But I'm not entirely sure on Top though, more testing is required. The Time Walk is always good, it either pitches to FoW or helps you get an Academy untap after a draw 7. Other times, it just cycles.
Team R&D
Not quite sure how you're flooding on Belchers? Any hand that doesn't have enough mana to get started and a castable piece of business (belcher, tinker, vault+key, a draw-7) is a mulligan.
Pact isn't exciting but FoW isn't enough, and the drawback usually doesn't matter - you can easily pay or just belch with the trigger on the stack.
Top seems like it goes against the plan here - kill on turn 1-2. If you end up in an attrition war you've usually already lost, but just wait until you can play out belcher the hard way. They won't pressure you nearly enough for it to matter.
Can you give example hands / games to discuss?
Goldfished some more and you are probably right. Very enjoyable deck, thanks for sharibg it. Unfortunately no vintage tourneys anywhere nearby anymore..
Team R&D
Why don't you guys run Serum Powder?
Treasure Hunt stops on the first NON-land, so this doesn't work for Belcher. You'll hit 1 card 99.99999% of the time.
Not to completely necro this thread, but I've still been working on this deck - and its gained more mainstream popularity. Diminishing Returns was a big pickup that probably should have been there from the beginning. Tezzeret the Seeker is also just extra 5-mana Belchers. Transmute Artifact can even be played as 6ish mana Belchers if needed.
I'm actually playing around with a version playing Land Grant (thanks to 'pomegrant' on twitch for the idea) to see if that helps the blue IMS problems the deck often has.
Here's where I'm at now, using the Land Grant package instead of Grim Monolith and all the Voltaic Keys:
Mana:
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
Business:
4 Diminishing Returns
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
Protection:
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
Sideboard:
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mind's Desire
2 Mishra's Workshop
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Pact of Negation
4 Leyline of Anticipation
2 Defense Grid
2 Hurkyl's Recall
Normally I'd hate to double post, but they just printed another Timetwister. This deck with Day's Undoing is absurd. Its irritating not to be able to keep going that turn, but the density of draw-7s is too high for it to matter. Also, when you board in the Leylines the drawback doesn't exist - you literally just have 5 Timewisters! It might actually be reasonable to cut the protection, move Leylines main and just go completely all in? Is anybody else actively working on this?
I'm trying this out right now, and its absurd:
Mana:
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
Business:
4 Diminishing Returns
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
4 Day's Undoing
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
Protection:
4 Force of Will
Sideboard:
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mind's Desire
2 Mishra's Workshop
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Pact of Negation
4 Leyline of Anticipation
2 Defense Grid
2 Hurkyl's Recall
Seems like I'm the only one still working on this, but its going pretty well. Latest iteration I'm trying an Oath board plan to combat men / shops which are the bad matchups right now.
Mana:
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mox Opal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Expedition Map
1 Mana Crypt
Business:
4 Diminishing Returns
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Timetwister
4 Day's Undoing
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Card Draw
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brianstorm
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
Protection:
4 Force of Will
Sideboard:
2 Pact of Negation
4 Oath of Druids
1 Blazing Archon
4 Leyline of Anticipation
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Forbidden Orchard
This is pretty rough, but it seems like the plan makes sense.
Great evolution since vintage super league 2 with the Land Grants. Much better than Simian Spirit Guides. However I dont think that Days Undoing is that great in this deck, because we cannot control the opponents turn with that few protection spells. Other thing, have you considered Transmute Artifact? Its a silly card in Vintage i guess,
BBB
My theory with Day's Undoing is to maximize turn 1 timetwister effects, forcing my opponent to have a force or mulligan. Even if you don't do anything else turn 1, you're often so far ahead it doesn't matter. I could be wrong in the long run, but its been great so far.
I think I'd max out Tezzerets before I'd play Transmute just because its essentially a 5-mana belcher instead of Transmute's 6-mana belcher. Tezz is also the alternate wincon, so more of them might be reasonable.
I am very excited to see some movement here on this thread! I have been messing with Mono U Belcher lately and have some similarities and differences in my build. here is what I am currently playing with:
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
2 Voltaic Key
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Expedition Map
1 Time Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Monolith
1 Memory Jar
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 Mox Opal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
1 Time Spiral
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Day's Undoing
3 Leyline of Anticipation
SB: 2 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Leyline of Anticipation
SB: 1 Blightsteel Collossus
SB: 1 Day's Undoing
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 2 Mishra's Workshop
SB: 1 Void Snare
SB: 1 Dack Fayden
(yes that is a 61 card mainboard)
Day's Undoing has been one of my favorite changes to this deck!! Aggressively mulligan-ing has lead to consistent odds (in my favor) of achieving a Leyline of Anticipation and Twister effect in the opener with sufficient means to cast it.
By going all-in on the Twisters and bringing in the Leylines, it also allows for me to proudly state that Ponder and Preordain now under perform and have been replaced.
Honestly, being able to play with 5 Timetwisters is just BONKERS.
I have tested out the Diminishing Returns plan, however for me I always end up losing something rather important. Casting 2 more commonly put me into scoop mode for losing too many value cards with my bad luck
Leyline main also allows for less bad game one matchups by going off reactive style even if you are not on the play. There have been many times I have played a Day's Undoing on an opponents turn 1 with a Gitaxian probe on the stack, to keep a decent board presence to move to my turn and play Tolarian Academy and just win there.
Sure a Turn 1 Null rod stinks, but when you can intentionally refuel your hand until you can stop it, it is not so bad. (or just win in response! Which feels SO good)
The 1 Dack Fayden in the sideboard was because I needed a plan that would allow me to win by alternate means if it came up. However It has stayed in the board for a nice "what if" option. I have debated moving him to the main, but I do not want to dilute the plan. An alternative to him was noxious revival for easier redo's However I have not found myself needing a noxious as often, even though it has lead to some pretty funny dredge situations.
I like the Tinker for Platinum Angel plan main, since it is protected so well by Pact of Negation as pointed out earlier.
Is it worth running a couple Hurkyls Recall main? it acts as a ritual with all our artifact mana and gives us some more game vs MUD. Or could this deck benefit from Cunning Wish?
I ran this list back in April, before the new printings. I was pleased with it back then, but it may be out of date.
Tolarian Academy 1
Lotus Petal 1
Mox Pearl 1
Mox Sapphire 1
Mox Jet 1
Mox Ruby 1
Mox Emerald 1
Mox Opal 4
Chrome Mox 4
Mana crypt 1
Lion's Eye Diamond 1
Black Lotus 1
Candelabra of Tawnos 1
Voltaic Key 2
Expedition Map 4
Sol Ring 1
Mana Vault 1
Time Vault 1
Grim Monolith 2
Goblin Charbelcher 4
Pact of Negation 3
Mental Misstep 2
Ancestral Recall 1
Force of Will 4
Gitaxian Probe 4
Ponder 1
Preordain 4
Time Walk 1
Timetwister 1
Tinker 1
Diminishing Returns 2
Tezzeret the Seeker 2
SIDEBOARD
City of Traitors 2
Grafdigger's Cage 3
Grim Monolith 2
Defense Grid 2
Mental Misstep 1
Flusterstorm 2
Leyline of Anticipation 3
not 'working' on this but fired up cockatrice for the first time in ages last night and took this for a spin.
and WHAT a spin. grabbed a pre-Day's Undoing list but will update it. deck goldfishes like a monster, its awesome.
@warfordium on twitter.
I'd love to see an updated list for this. Please share :)
Does any one have the list that was on coverage at vintage champs. I think it was Danny Batterman vs some one else.
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