[SCD] Chalice of the Void

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The problem most chalice decks have is that they mulligan poorly and cant really recover. In my opinion if you want to play a consistent deck with chalice you should look at U/B Tezzerator. Jace, Tezzeret and Thirst for Knowledge help mitigate the problem and the talismans and signets make hands a lot easier to keep.

This. From all the Stompy decks, only the red one is brutal enough (7 Moons, Trini) to actually hate on the format, the blue one has Jace an wutbnot, so it's also not really bad. UB Tezz is the way to go if you're looking for a Chalice based deck.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Chalice has been a go-to SB option for me for years now, but it's definitely getting better and better. Others have raised concerns about MD Chalices and the kinds of decks that can do that, but frankly I think it's still best left in the SB as a very, very nasty surprise.

[Aggro_zombies]

Much of what has been said thus far is retarded. It doesn't have to be played turn one on the play. Is it better turn one on the play? Of course ... what an absurd observation. Mother of Runes is better on the play turn one, so is Goblin Guide. It doesn't have to be played on turn one to be effective if it's blanking your opponents removal, especially if what it's protecting is a 2-3 turn clock. It dies to Abrupt Decay is a fantastic reason to never play 1-2 CMC perms, thanks.

No, but:

If you're running Chalice in the main, it means you're forfeiting one-drops. You have two options at that point: sit on your hands on turn one and then not consistently maximize your mana for a while, or run a bunch of acceleration so you play at the same speed the rest of the format does. Going with the former plan is not, and has never been, good in Legacy. Going with the latter plan leads to consistency issues because you don't have access to the most powerful ways to smooth your draws out (since they basically all cost one) so you have to gamble on getting the right mix of acceleration and disruption through luck.

Arguments over whether you get to live the dream with turn one Chalice at one are just touching on deeper consistency issues that Chalice decks tend to have.

I mean, it's worth remembering that people have been saying that Chalice is good against the format repeatedly for years, and yet no strong, consistent Chalice deck has cropped up anywhere. That suggests either that Chalice itself is not as insane as being able to play the powerful cards OR that problems with Chalice's support architecture more than mitigate the power of Chalice itself. My experience leads me to believe it's some combination of both.

[Megadeus]

No, but:

If you're running Chalice in the main, it means you're forfeiting one-drops. You have two options at that point: sit on your hands on turn one and then not consistently maximize your mana for a while, or run a bunch of acceleration so you play at the same speed the rest of the format does. Going with the former plan is not, and has never been, good in Legacy. Going with the latter plan leads to consistency issues because you don't have access to the most powerful ways to smooth your draws out (since they basically all cost one) so you have to gamble on getting the right mix of acceleration and disruption through luck.

Arguments over whether you get to live the dream with turn one Chalice at one are just touching on deeper consistency issues that Chalice decks tend to have.

I mean, it's worth remembering that people have been saying that Chalice is good against the format repeatedly for years, and yet no strong, consistent Chalice deck has cropped up anywhere. That suggests either that Chalice itself is not as insane as being able to play the powerful cards OR that problems with Chalice's support architecture more than mitigate the power of Chalice itself. My experience leads me to believe it's some combination of both.

Or no-one plays it

[Barook]

Or no-one plays it

Because it blows.

Maybe Chalice decks get one day better when they decide to print a creature version to increase the consistency of T1 Chalice effects:

Voidling X
Artifact Creature - Construct
Voidling enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of +1/+1 counters on Voidling, counter that spell.
0/0

[bruizar]

No, but:

If you're running Chalice in the main, it means you're forfeiting one-drops.

This is an assumption and should not be taken as a universal truth. I can run one-drops ALONGSIDE chalice of the void; as long as I run FEWER one drops than my opponent and/or have less critical one-drops to further my game plan compared to my opponent.

If my opponent's deck absolutely relies on 1-drops, I am more than willing to blank a couple of my own spells in exchange for countering half his deck of critical spells (like against RUG, which only has Tarmogoyf as a 2-mana threat.)

For example: I have run Goblin Welder and Chalice of the Void together and I rarely ran into conflict with it, both in Vintage and in Legacy. Cavern of Souls makes it even easier to run 1-mana spells and chalice together.

Another example is the use of cards that increase or decrease the number of counters on Chalice of the Void, such as Coretapper or Proliferate cards. Even though those type of strategies have never been competitive, form a theoretical standpoint, it would allow you to construct a deck that can reliably cast Chalice of the Void on 1 while also running your own set of 1-CC spells.

[ShiftyKapree]

CotV is decent at best. I ran into it playing rug delver before and crushed them with a turn two goyf. I just let CotV counter all my one drops and I filled my yard and smashed face with it. Also I beat it playing NO CBT a long time ago. Like people say its great in an opening hand turn one on the play, other than that the card is decent. Now in Vintage the cards house.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

CotV is decent at best. I ran into it playing rug delver before and crushed them with a turn two goyf. I just let CotV counter all my one drops and I filled my yard and smashed face with it. Also I beat it playing NO CBT a long time ago. Like people say its great in an opening hand turn one on the play, other than that the card is decent. Now in Vintage the cards house.

Yep. I lost to RUG with Faerie Stompy just because he managed to sneak in Goyf. I won my share of games against Chalice/Trini decks wit hexactly the same tactic - slam the Goyf asap as long as there's no Moon to stop you from it, then just counter w/e he tries to throw in his way.

[(nameless one)]

Chalice sucks because it doesn't have a supporting cast

Brainstorm has Fetchlands and FoW, not to mention the broken cards you can draw with it.

Deathrite Shaman has Abrupt Decay, Liliana and Fetchlands.

Vial has hatebears, Wasteland and Port.

What do you get with Chalice? Trinisphere? Tangle Wire?

While Chalice's supporting cast is good, can it's supporting cast win game? Brainstorm draws you answers and threats. Deathrite Shaman is a threat by itself. Vial puts in threats onto the field, or slow the opponent down long enough (with the land base) that you slowly kill your opponent with that Thalia or Goblin Lackey.

I fucking love Chalice. Wrote a primer on MUD but Legacy just doesn't offer enough supporting cast to Chalice.

Chalice is broken in Vintage because it can simultaneously deny opponent's mana (Moxen) and lock your opponent. You can't do that in Legacy because you might be able to shut down your opponent's Brainstorm/DRS/Vial; he can still Combo out with manarocks, Cabal Ritual/resolve Jace, Shardless Agent/Tarmogoyf, Abrupy Decay/a goblin, merfolk, or a hatebear.

Also, you know how hard is it to resolve a Chalice at one and have a proper mana base that doesn't shit on itself because you draw something that costs 6 on turn two?

Chalice just needs proper support. Aggro Loam is fine but that deck is doing too much in a tight list. Not to mention DRS eats Loam. MUD decks would be awesome but turn one Chalice to turn two nothing is shit compared to a turn one DRS to turn two Liliana or turn one Vial, turn two Waste/Port your land EOT Mom/Lackey/Cursecatcher.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is an assumption and should not be taken as a universal truth. I can run one-drops ALONGSIDE chalice of the void; as long as I run FEWER one drops than my opponent and/or have less critical one-drops to further my game plan compared to my opponent.

If my opponent's deck absolutely relies on 1-drops, I am more than willing to blank a couple of my own spells in exchange for countering half his deck of critical spells (like against RUG, which only has Tarmogoyf as a 2-mana threat.)

For example: I have run Goblin Welder and Chalice of the Void together and I rarely ran into conflict with it, both in Vintage and in Legacy. Cavern of Souls makes it even easier to run 1-mana spells and chalice together.

Another example is the use of cards that increase or decrease the number of counters on Chalice of the Void, such as Coretapper or Proliferate cards. Even though those type of strategies have never been competitive, form a theoretical standpoint, it would allow you to construct a deck that can reliably cast Chalice of the Void on 1 while also running your own set of 1-CC spells.

I don't understand this contrarianism. You're essentially advocating building a bad deck in the hopes of being able to have your cake and eat it, too. Why not just run Counterbalance in this scenario? At least then you can always cast your spells.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Chalice of the Void is a fine card in the current Legacy meta. Yes, decks that include it do suffer from decreased consistency by having to eschew 1cmc cantrips, but that can be balanced by increasing the power of the individual cards in the deck.

I'm currently playing a Welder MUD list and love Chalice. Against RUG Delver, if it resolves with X=1, they generally lose. This forces them to use counters on it, which is fine, because it allows you to resolve your threats, and Wurmcoil Engine, Sundering Titan, and Kuldotha Forgemaster laugh at Lightning Bolts. Against other decks, like Deathblade/Stoneblade, all Chalice really has to do is shut off Swords to Plowshares so that you can confidently forgemaster into Blightsteel Colossus. The point is, CotV on turn 1 with X=1 can sometimes be an auto-win, but there are plenty of times that you can jam it later to protect from a specific threat (heck, in MUD, it's not out of the question to put CotV on X=4 to shut out Jace, the Mind Sculptor).