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Thread: Magic - the Cheatering

  1. #441

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    I think it has more to do with the fact that he's stolen an arbitrary amount of entry fees from strong, honest players who brought their best to the table and played honestly. If anything, he owes them their money back if he was directly responsible for knocking them out contention. That part was entirely missed or completely ambiguous and no one has seemed to bring that up. Straight-up textbook definition of sociopathic behavior.

    And what's funnier (putting this into perspective): this whole topic is about someone that put out a press release about their cheating in Magic: the Gathering. That in and of itself is hilarious and absurd.

  2. #442
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    It really sucks to be an opponent against someone like him. Like you should always be on the lookout for your opponent possibly trying to cheat, but when you sit across from his you know he's a known cheater and half of your mental energy has to be spent watching him play. I personally like to use my opponents turn to plan out my next turn, not baby sit them and either watch them for cheating or fix their "sloppy" mistakes. I wonder how often his self proclaimed sloppy mistakes were to his own disadvantage?
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  3. #443
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Guy is a douche, pure and simple. I mean if winning is that important to you that you continually cheat at something you claim to love, and keep cheating after being banned, there is something very wrong there. I had to laugh as someone posted in the comments about people with their armchair M.D.s calling him a sociopath. I have my medical degree, and I have to agree, his history and that statement just scream sociopath. So sad.

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  4. #444

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    Feels genuine to me, maybe I'm just naive but I believe in second (and third, fourth, fifth etc) chances. I think the 'once a thief'-mentality to mostly be harmful.
    Also people enjoy to hate all to much.
    Do you think that convicted child rapists should be allowed to work at a daycare center after being released from prison?

    Okay, that's certainly a more extreme situation. But while it's certainly possible for someone to mend their ways, that doesn't mean you should be taking unnecessary chances to allow them to repeat their crimes. Particularly when the ban is something as minor as playing a trading card game competitively.

    But there's something I find more puzzling about this, and I realized it after stumbling across this article.

    Remember Zach Jesse? Remember MTG Lion? When they received lifetime bans, there was an uproar and controversy about it. They had a good number of people who thought they should be able to continue to play. Now maybe you agree with their defenders and maybe you don't. But the point is that while there were people strongly in favor of their bannings, there were people strongly against it.

    Now consider Alex Bertoncini. There's a lot of people who think he should be banned for life. But how many people actually think Alex Bertoncini should be allowed to keep playing? (very few, as far as I can tell) How much of a controversy or backlash would there be if he were banned for life? (very little) So what exactly is stopping them? Or rather, what stopped them from giving him a lifetime ban the last time they re-banned him?

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    So what exactly is stopping them?
    He's one of the few in pro Magic who isn't bland and completely replaceable. He's a character, and that gets viewers and sales.

    Nobody's excited to see generic nerd #462 go head to head against some dork with serial number 5683456456756 in a thrilling matchup of variance-laden card gaming where there's probably a 20% chance that one of them will get mana-screwed/flooded and have zero influence on the outcome. That's what pro Magic is without characters.

    What gets people excited about watching stuff is stories and narratives. Watching Mr. Clean go up against Heel McCheatyface in a top 8 match...there's some good entertainment. And just look at how much buzz Bertowhatever's top 8 escapade has generated. Every goddamn singles retailer website, every youtube boob angling for hipster welfare payouts on Patreon, they're all getting tons of clicks and hits commenting on this guy. Drama generates revenue in media and entertainment, and this is good drama.

    And what's the upside, from WotC's point of view, for going all-out and banning this guy without precedent? Some Twitter kudos? Or maybe even more outrage. Better to just wait it out and suspend him again if, in a shocking turn of events, a habitually dishonest person breaks the rules.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    He's one of the few in pro Magic who isn't bland and completely replaceable. He's a character, and that gets viewers and sales.

    Nobody's excited to see generic nerd #462 go head to head against some dork with serial number 5683456456756 in a thrilling matchup of variance-laden card gaming where there's probably a 20% chance that one of them will get mana-screwed/flooded and have zero influence on the outcome. That's what pro Magic is without characters.

    What gets people excited about watching stuff is stories and narratives. Watching Mr. Clean go up against Heel McCheatyface in a top 8 match...there's some good entertainment. And just look at how much buzz Bertowhatever's top 8 escapade has generated. Every goddamn singles retailer website, every youtube boob angling for hipster welfare payouts on Patreon, they're all getting tons of clicks and hits commenting on this guy. Drama generates revenue in media and entertainment, and this is good drama.

    And what's the upside, from WotC's point of view, for going all-out and banning this guy without precedent? Some Twitter kudos? Or maybe even more outrage. Better to just wait it out and suspend him again if, in a shocking turn of events, a habitually dishonest person breaks the rules.
    While I understand the "character" bit, but at the same time he's toxic to the vast majority of the people that love this game. He puts people on edge to be near him, nervous to play against him with the constant wanderings about if he's cheating against them, and with everything all added up together he detracts from the joy and fun that people get out of being at a convention or other large event merely by his presence being known in the area. Same thing happens around known thieves.

    I've played against him many years ago, before the first banning, and there were whisperings about how you should watch how he plays. He seemed very affable, but I had in my mind already that I had to watch him like a hawk and I didn't enjoy the games I played because of it. That was even before the first banning, now though... I don't know how TOs let him play sanctioned Magic when there's so many negative things that hover around him.
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    He's one of the few in pro Magic who isn't bland and completely replaceable. He's a character, and that gets viewers and sales.

    Nobody's excited to see generic nerd #462 go head to head against some dork with serial number 5683456456756 in a thrilling matchup of variance-laden card gaming where there's probably a 20% chance that one of them will get mana-screwed/flooded and have zero influence on the outcome. That's what pro Magic is without characters.

    What gets people excited about watching stuff is stories and narratives. Watching Mr. Clean go up against Heel McCheatyface in a top 8 match...there's some good entertainment. And just look at how much buzz Bertowhatever's top 8 escapade has generated. Every goddamn singles retailer website, every youtube boob angling for hipster welfare payouts on Patreon, they're all getting tons of clicks and hits commenting on this guy. Drama generates revenue in media and entertainment, and this is good drama.

    And what's the upside, from WotC's point of view, for going all-out and banning this guy without precedent? Some Twitter kudos? Or maybe even more outrage. Better to just wait it out and suspend him again if, in a shocking turn of events, a habitually dishonest person breaks the rules.
    I hope you realize that by banning someone from competition they preclude that person from being part of the competition, and that as a result, the narrative you suppose makes no sense.
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  8. #448

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    @ Ronald Deuce that's why BApe is arguing that Bertoncini shouldn't be banned

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    He's one of the few in pro Magic who isn't bland and completely replaceable. He's a character, and that gets viewers and sales.

    Nobody's excited to see generic nerd #462 go head to head against some dork with serial number 5683456456756 in a thrilling matchup of variance-laden card gaming where there's probably a 20% chance that one of them will get mana-screwed/flooded and have zero influence on the outcome. That's what pro Magic is without characters.

    What gets people excited about watching stuff is stories and narratives. Watching Mr. Clean go up against Heel McCheatyface in a top 8 match...there's some good entertainment. And just look at how much buzz Bertowhatever's top 8 escapade has generated. Every goddamn singles retailer website, every youtube boob angling for hipster welfare payouts on Patreon, they're all getting tons of clicks and hits commenting on this guy. Drama generates revenue in media and entertainment, and this is good drama.

    And what's the upside, from WotC's point of view, for going all-out and banning this guy without precedent? Some Twitter kudos? Or maybe even more outrage. Better to just wait it out and suspend him again if, in a shocking turn of events, a habitually dishonest person breaks the rules.
    This is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard (and why MaRo has copped so much flak on social media in the last week for taking a similar position r.e. Mike Long).

    You conflate 'people getting excited about narratives' and 'getting sales'. In this specific instance I would strongly argue that the opposite is true. Nobody is seeing that this guy is allowed to play and going "Wow, MTG is so exciting it’s just like WWE, I’m going to go and buy some booster packs so I can play against a guy just like that”. Even if we agree that ‘characters’ drive sales and that ‘heel’ characters can be a useful part of this it isn’t essential that their ‘heel’ trait actually go against the rules of the game. You can have a player who always plays a ‘villain’ deck like lantern or dredge etc or you can have a player who trashtalks his peers a lot and I think these things are fine, and maybe they should play these things up on coverage more. But defending cheaters because they create drama is like defending a WWE star who deliberately and repeatedly deviates from the script by breaking his opponents’ legs. Yes it would create a lot of drama and tons of people would probably tune in to watch his matches but it’s absolutely awful for all of his opponents. Even if you’re a psychopath and think this would be overall a good thing for WWE to allow, the key difference is that the aim of MTG coverage is to get you to buy cards and play the game. Having players ruining the game on coverage does not achieve this goal. The main goal of WWE coverage isn’t to inspire people to be IN the WWE, and if it was, people would be discouraged by the prospect of getting into the ring and facing some man-mountain actively trying turn them into a paraplegic.

    Singles Retailers (presumably you mean articles on the singles websites, because there’s no way “Hey look at the cheating that’s allowed in this game” actually sells product) and Youtube boobs might be getting clicks from this, but I don’t care about the bottom line of these people. As an MTG player my top priority is for the experience of playing MTG to be as positive as possible and if you allow chronic cheaters to play, that simply isn’t happening. The upside from WotCs perspective ("Without precedent" - REALLY?) is therefore that by taking a strong stance against cheaters I am more inclined to try and play the game competitively, which encourages me to buy cards and enter tournaments.

    The exact same "it's good because it creates drama" argument can be equally applied to the counterfeit cards issue, which hopefully illustrates how dumb of a line it is to take

    As an aside: I remember the Zack Jesse story but I had literally never heard of MTG lion until this thread

  9. #449
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Yeah there's a difference between an interesting personality and an asshole who cheats then brags about it. The only interesting thing about watching him on camera is trying to see if he'll try to cheat again. I would say I wish that all of his opponents would protest him being in a tournament by simply refusing to play against him, but that would just result in him getting top 8. Maybe something could be forced to happen if you got paired against him and everyone refused to play and demanded a refund.
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  10. #450

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    I think of this the way I see many sports handle suspensions for PEDs, etc. The first suspension is pretty lengthy, the second moreso, and if you continue to cheat, you can be banned at the discretion of the Commissioner. I don't think people should be banned for life after they are first caught cheating (I do think age and maturity can help lead cheating as we don't see 40 year olds out there cheating). If they cheat again then it is hard to argue against it. Alex probably should have been banned for life but he wasn't and he served the penalty which was assessed by the DCI. I don't like the idea of going back and punishing someone again for something they have already been punished for, regardless of public opinion. I also believe people can change for the better and it's one of the reasons I don't recommend kicking some of my Soldiers out of the Army the first time they pop hot on a drug test or do something stupid (depending on rank). I'm just going to hope he is clean now and I do hope he can make a difference and that his donations are sincere.

    I do think his whole post came out as a result of the outcry from him making Top 8 at the GP and I don't think he would have made the post otherwise. I also don't think he realized (to this extent) how much people really don't like him for his past actions until all of social media went off.

  11. #451
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    WotC made a Twitter comment on cheating. But what is the context actually? Did I miss sth?

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    There is a conversation going on. For a long time Wizards ignored what was happening around them (Online issues left to fester without lancing the boil for example) but now they have come to react more. Bertoncini is in the spotlight again and it does not matter if he was cheating or not, he has worn out his welcome with the population at large. Wizards is starting to understand that it appears and is saying "Hey, we hear you, stop yelling at us."
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by SmallFish View Post
    I think of this the way I see many sports handle suspensions for PEDs, etc. The first suspension is pretty lengthy, the second moreso, and if you continue to cheat, you can be banned at the discretion of the Commissioner. I don't think people should be banned for life after they are first caught cheating (I do think age and maturity can help lead cheating as we don't see 40 year olds out there cheating). If they cheat again then it is hard to argue against it. Alex probably should have been banned for life but he wasn't and he served the penalty which was assessed by the DCI. I don't like the idea of going back and punishing someone again for something they have already been punished for, regardless of public opinion. I also believe people can change for the better and it's one of the reasons I don't recommend kicking some of my Soldiers out of the Army the first time they pop hot on a drug test or do something stupid (depending on rank). I'm just going to hope he is clean now and I do hope he can make a difference and that his donations are sincere.

    I do think his whole post came out as a result of the outcry from him making Top 8 at the GP and I don't think he would have made the post otherwise. I also don't think he realized (to this extent) how much people really don't like him for his past actions until all of social media went off.
    That's great and all and I think most people believe in second chances. This case however he had been caught cheating multiple times before he was even banned the first time. Between that and his further expanded ban it should've been a lifetime ban. Nothing is gained from the WOTC side for letting such a rampant cheater continue to play in their premiere events other than to further ostracize people who aren't habitual cheaters who already feel that the top tables are laden with possible cheaters.
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Is he applying for a WOTC position or something? That was the most half assed thing i've ever read.
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  15. #455

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    That's great and all and I think most people believe in second chances. This case however he had been caught cheating multiple times before he was even banned the first time. Between that and his further expanded ban it should've been a lifetime ban. Nothing is gained from the WOTC side for letting such a rampant cheater continue to play in their premiere events other than to further ostracize people who aren't habitual cheaters who already feel that the top tables are laden with possible cheaters.
    I'm not arguing that he should not have had a lifetime ban. I'm stating that I don't agree with going back and retroactively punishing someone for their actions when that person has already served the punishment which was handed to them. Maybe Wizards made a mistake or maybe they thought a three year ban was adequate. Maybe they will change their penalties moving forward. I would lose respect for them if they caved in to public pressure and handed out a lifetime ban when the punishment, which they gave to a player, was served.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by SmallFish View Post
    I'm not arguing that he should not have had a lifetime ban. I'm stating that I don't agree with going back and retroactively punishing someone for their actions when that person has already served the punishment which was handed to them. Maybe Wizards made a mistake or maybe they thought a three year ban was adequate. Maybe they will change their penalties moving forward. I would lose respect for them if they caved in to public pressure and handed out a lifetime ban when the punishment, which they gave to a player, was served.
    Between the bannings of people for being moderators of a group that had some negative posts (which I vehemently disagree with and is a main factor to why Tusk Talk has ended), and banning someone for prior crimes committed years ago, I think WOTC is on the don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about their bannings plan. If something is hurting their bottom line (or they at least feel that way) then they have shown that they may react accordingly.
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  17. #457

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    He's one of the few in pro Magic who isn't bland and completely replaceable. He's a character, and that gets viewers and sales.

    Nobody's excited to see generic nerd #462 go head to head against some dork with serial number 5683456456756 in a thrilling matchup of variance-laden card gaming where there's probably a 20% chance that one of them will get mana-screwed/flooded and have zero influence on the outcome. That's what pro Magic is without characters.

    What gets people excited about watching stuff is stories and narratives. Watching Mr. Clean go up against Heel McCheatyface in a top 8 match...there's some good entertainment.
    Assuming Wizards of the Coast is actually following this rationale--and while I have a low opinion of them, it's not that low--this is a terrible idea. What you're describing is what gets people excited in fictional series, not real life.

    Someone might claim "but people watched professional wrestling back when they didn't know it was fake, and it totally had guys you disliked as major contenders!" Yeah, but it was still scripted, so the writers were able to make stories that had proper buildup and payoff. They'd build up the jerk character, but then they'll get his comeuppeance at the hands of someone the audience had also been made to care about. Hoping for "Mr. Clean vs. Heel McCheatyface" doesn't work so well when you have no guarantee that those two players will even go against each other, much less the right person will win for the sake of the story.

    There's another important issue here. When a guy cheats and gets away with it, that's a signal that if you're cheated against, even if it's discovered, the cheater will skate by. Since professional wrestling fans are rarely actually wrestlers (unlike Magic, where people who watch events are also players), a wrestler "cheating" in a match doesn't carry the concern that you could be a victim of it as well.

    And just look at how much buzz Bertowhatever's top 8 escapade has generated. Every goddamn singles retailer website, every youtube boob angling for hipster welfare payouts on Patreon, they're all getting tons of clicks and hits commenting on this guy. Drama generates revenue in media and entertainment, and this is good drama.
    That may be beneficial for those who are writing such articles. But is it beneficial for Wizards of the Coast? That seems less likely. Consider the whole Colin Kaepernick thing; lots of buzz and drama, lots of articles and videos made, and maybe it accomplished something politically... but did it benefit the NFL? Given that their viewership dropped, that seems to be a no. Now I know there's a lot of differences between the two situations, but the point is that while a lot of other people may benefit from controversy, it's far less likely that the company that's the source of the controversy does.

    And what's the upside, from WotC's point of view, for going all-out and banning this guy without precedent? Some Twitter kudos? Or maybe even more outrage.
    Without precedent? Zach Jesse is perfectly valid precedent, someone who got banned for life for something that wasn't actually against the official rules, so how is banning someone for life for something that was actually against the official rules without precedent? (also, "without precedent" is often a weak argument because something being "without precedent" just means something hasn't happened yet)

    At any rate, even if one can argue he shouldn't be banned right now because there hasn't been any clear case of a cheat since he came back, I don't see much of an argument as to why he shouldn't have received a lifetime ban back when he got suspended the second time.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Are people seriously debating the merits of Ned Leeds's arguments right now?
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    If your games integrity is in jeopardy for years due to cheating ... pardon ... sloppy play on the top tables and some of the games most known faces are cheaters, the Problem is quite obvious.

    Maybe they are indeed better off by just inviting and covering Twitch-Streamers than giving countless cheaters air time.
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  20. #460

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    In an early round, I got paired against Reanimator. I was just playing my match, nothing out of the ordinary, when something very unordinary happened. I drew my Sower of Temptation. Now the week prior, I had played Sower of Temptation maindeck in an event in upstate New York. I know that Sower of Temptation is a very reasonable card to have maindeck for Merfolk. I believe I can get away with this, and don’t want to get a game loss. I end up playing it anyways and winning the game. Upon going to the next game, I see I forgot to sideboard out my Tormod’s Crypts as well. If I had drawn one of those, I would have had to call the judge because it’s obviously not a maindeck card and I’m sure my opponent also would have known that and called me on it.
    Had me dying laughing. He somehow... not only forgot to side out Sower, but Tormod's Crypt as well. Against Reanimator.

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