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Thread: Magic - the Cheatering

  1. #21
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    Do you know what cheating means?

    I'm all for harsher penalties on cheaters, but you don't start by classifying unintentional errors as such.
    So, there's attacking with a creature with summoning sickness, and then there's two Explores.

    The OP didn't post a link, but they did say which tournament it was so there's ample opportunity to dig deeper. Maybe there are some video matches worth analyzing, I have no idea. But really, it seems like there are habits which are more conducive to keeping the game state correct, and some which are more prone to producing an incorrect game state. Ham-fisting your Brainstorm draws is one of them. I cannot fucking stand that when it's a non-casual game; call me a hater or whatever but there's always some lug with monster hands that can palm Pringles can like I palm a quarter, and he draws all three cards in one swift motion and pulls it into his hand real fast. It's like watching David Copperfield doing some sleight of hand after having a bad reaction to shellfish; I have no literal idea what the fuck just happened, there's just extra cards in dude's hand.

    When there's something tangible on the line, people should try to straighten up and fly right, I think. You fan those cards on the table before you draw them, one card at a time so my four-eyed ass can see it happen. Of course I expect that; why wouldn't you want your opponent to demonstrate drawing cards? I'm in the "fuck you, kill me" camp too, I don't care about your soft Enchantress lock; end the bloody game. Demonstrate your flipping game actions! Gahhh!
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  2. #22

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    If I pay $40 and am playing a Competitive REL event and am not in the X-3 bracket waiting to go drink I call a judge on every GRV. The judge staff has a record of GRVs. If everyone did this you'd know who the cheaters were pretty quickly, and the shitty players would learn to correct their play. I called a judge on myself for missing my own Mana Crypt i.e. Lightning Bolt Machine on Sunday. It's a detrimental trigger and I got a GRV. The end.

  3. #23
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Saturday, at the TCG 50K, I didn't hand out a single penalty. First time in my life that has ever happened. If we handed out GLs for every infraction, upgrade path would have us DQing dozens of people at every tournament. Mistakes happen. We all miss shit. I've missed shit on matches I was watching and I have nothing better to do than look for infractions.
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Im not talking about Mass-DQing people at your FNM. Im talking about high level tournaments, where you can win a few thousand dollars.
    Mistakes happen of course, but than you have to live with the consequences. And there will always be the guys who want to win, no matter how. The reward when cheating is much higher than the risk. (illegal actions stay unnoticed, people not calling judges, collecting warnings for different fractions)

    Id rather lose a game, because I made a mistake, than to suspect that cheating is required or helps to win tournaments.
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    If I pay $40 and am playing a Competitive REL event and am not in the X-3 bracket waiting to go drink I call a judge on every GRV. The judge staff has a record of GRVs. If everyone did this you'd know who the cheaters were pretty quickly, and the shitty players would learn to correct their play. I called a judge on myself for missing my own Mana Crypt i.e. Lightning Bolt Machine on Sunday. It's a detrimental trigger and I got a GRV. The end.
    This is an important thing to note. Penalties become more severe the more times a player breaks a rule. If you're not calling a judge every time someone commits a GRV, you're hurting the next person they GRV against.

    A really common one seems to be attacking with creatures that can't. Summoning Sick, Ensaring Bridge, Moat, etc
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    If I pay $40 and am playing a Competitive REL event and am not in the X-3 bracket waiting to go drink I call a judge on every GRV. The judge staff has a record of GRVs. If everyone did this you'd know who the cheaters were pretty quickly, and the shitty players would learn to correct their play. I called a judge on myself for missing my own Mana Crypt i.e. Lightning Bolt Machine on Sunday. It's a detrimental trigger and I got a GRV. The end.
    This is also true for slow play!

    If your opponent is using too much time, ask him to fasten his pace and if he doesn't call a judge to ask for slow play!

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Slow play can be really hard to define... I spent well over an hour on game 1, match 1 of quarterfinals in a legacy side event at a GP. The other half of the bracket was finished through up to the finals before we'd finished our first game... Three judges rotating in/out of watching the game and no slow play rulings; who plays astral slide anyway?


    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Actually, he started playing when he was 5 years old:

    http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin.../activity/1126

    Doesn't change the fact that he grinded MODO for years before making a jump into the actual paper scene.
    Fixed that for you.

  8. #28
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    This is also true for slow play!

    If your opponent is using too much time, ask him to fasten his pace and if he doesn't call a judge to ask for slow play!
    I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping
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  9. #29
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    I guess I don't understand why the OP is suggesting that the offender gets an auto-game loss for any infraction. That doesn't even make any sense. If the referee of a football game penalized the Atlanta Falcons for having 12 men on the field, then says "due to the defense's infraction, the Carolina Panthers WIN THE GAME", what would you think?

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping
    In GP Ghent's side-event I played against a Miracle player who took minutes to rearrange his lands (clearly slow-play, but I didn't care much at that time and just told him to speed up after doing it several times), then, as soon as he draws an out to my Vortex he calls me out for being too slow when I thought about which cards to keep after a Brainstorm (or Ponder). Needless to say, the match ended in my only draw the whole weekend...and made me a Miracle hater.

  11. #31

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    To be disqualified for Cheating requires an intent to gain advantage from it either by intentionally committing the error, or noticing the error and not pointing it out to a judge.The vast majority of errors are unintentional. Players, especially when they're distracted with thinking the next turn ahead or because they're about to win, make all kinds of minor mistakes. I guarantee no one in this thread has played a full tournament without unintentionally violating the game rules in some way.

    To OP's point, the greatest tool in a judge's arsenal for catching cheaters are wary players who bring issues to our attention. If your opponent did something shady and I never found about it, I never have the opportunity to ask them some pointed questions.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn View Post
    In GP Ghent's side-event I played against a Miracle player who took minutes to rearrange his lands (clearly slow-play, but I didn't care much at that time and just told him to speed up after doing it several times), then, as soon as he draws an out to my Vortex he calls me out for being too slow when I thought about which cards to keep after a Brainstorm (or Ponder). Needless to say, the match ended in my only draw the whole weekend...and made me a Miracle hater.
    Sorry. I promise most Miracles players aren't that way. I've found that most experienced ones are very, very fast players. I finished two mirrors at Legacy Champs with more than 20 minutes left in the round.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping
    Obviously not in every case, and I don't mean when evaluating difficult boardstates/plays.
    I mean the ones that use 10-20 seconds on each top activarion, 10 seconds each ponder etc. :)


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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Sorry. I promise most Miracles players aren't that way. I've found that most experienced ones are very, very fast players. I finished two mirrors at Legacy Champs with more than 20 minutes left in the round.
    Lol, not your fault. ^^

    Problem is, most people aren't the "experienced" ones. That's not the only issue, though. I know several people who play Miracles at a fast pace, but sometimes the deck just takes eons to find a wincon.
    It's like Miracles produces a "Brainstorm" overload for some people (Brainstorm, Top and Jace) and they add up so much time due to a lack of experience or being able to evaluate boardstates etc.

    I guess I am biased, but in Modern they banned Top partially due to it's slow-play nature and Second Sunrise (*sadface*) also got axed for consuming too much time in inexperience hands.

    Sometimes it's not even a lack of experience, some people just play extremely slow.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn View Post
    Lol, not your fault. ^^

    Problem is, most people aren't the "experienced" ones. That's not the only issue, though. I know several people who play Miracles at a fast pace, but sometimes the deck just takes eons to find a wincon.
    It's like Miracles produces a "Brainstorm" overload for some people (Brainstorm, Top and Jace) and they add up so much time due to a lack of experience or being able to evaluate boardstates etc.

    I guess I am biased, but in Modern they banned Top partially due to it's slow-play nature and Second Sunrise (*sadface*) also got axed for consuming too much time in inexperience hands.

    Sometimes it's not even a lack of experience, some people just play extremely slow.
    Yeah, true. You need to know what the plan is at all times, and it takes a while to know what cards matter when. Some people are definitely just slow though.

    I know that's why top is banned in Modern. :(

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    So playing under a camera and being nervous counts for nothing?

    People are willfully cheating ON CAMERA all the time? and it's wide spread and prevalent?

    Get out of here OP you are drunk.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    So playing under a camera and being nervous counts for nothing?

    People are willfully cheating ON CAMERA all the time? and it's wide spread and prevalent?

    Get out of here OP you are drunk.


    Im not saying everybody cheats, but I say that cheates have an easy game under the current rules.
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  18. #38

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post


    Im not saying everybody cheats, but I say that cheates have an easy game under the current rules.
    Ah, yes - Bertoncheaty's Kira, the Great Glass Bouncer.

    But yes, there will be people who chest intentionally at the top level: not because it's high-stakes Poker, but because it's almost ubiquitous that some highly-skilled players will cheat.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    Im not saying everybody cheats, but I say that cheates have an easy game under the current rules.
    I think you missed the point of what i said. You were essentially accusing literally everyone at a high level and lower levels too, to be wilfully cheating on camera, which is super ludicrous. The proof you provided is the one person who has done this and got caught for doing it, and you think people are purposefully emulating his behaviour?

    I remember playing back in the day where you couldn't undo untaps etc, and it was when cheating was most rampant and thrived, and the game wasn't about skill but about who could skate the rules the most or make your opponent nervous or miss something. Magic is in a way better way more fun and fair place now than it was back then, and history backs this up in every way.

    You act as if there aren't penalties and the judges arent' doing their job, you realize LSV got a game loss in a game he had already won last year on the pro tour for drawing and extra card right? He even called the judges himself, it's not like these rules arent' in place, you just might not be happy with how they are being applied and handled, i get that but think you are way off base.
    How do you know the people on camera weren't given warnings? but it was done verbally without slowing down the action on camera? Maybe the judges realize that playing with a big crowd or on camera makes people super nervous and there is almost no gain to actually cheating in those circumstances and act accordingly?

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    So Bertoncini counts as "all the time"?

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