Magic - the Cheatering

[Darkenslight]

How do you people not realise how many (utterly ridiculous) mistakes players make? I guarantee you, go watch some feature matches and you will see every player do some inexplicable stuff. There are just too many decisions in Magic to get them all right; sometimes your mistakes will benefit you, sometimes they won't. Please stop grabbing your pitchforks whenever you see someone make a mistake that benefits them.

Sure - if it's the once, maybe twice.

But my understanding is that Brad gets a lot of accusations; but he's also more likable than others who've done things like this; for example, Jim Davis is almost completely reviled because, even when playing Mono-Red Aggro, he could go to time. So Brad gets some slack for that. It's interesting to watch how likability gets you further than being a scrote (see also - Alex Bertoncheaty).

[Dice_Box]

I like Jim Davis. His interviews are always gold.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Sure - if it's the once, maybe twice.

But my understanding is that Brad gets a lot of accusations; but he's also more likable than others who've done things like this; for example, Jim Davis is almost completely reviled because, even when playing Mono-Red Aggro, he could go to time. So Brad gets some slack for that. It's interesting to watch how likability gets you further than being a scrote (see also - Alex Bertoncheaty).

Maybe I wasn't clear: Everybody does stupid shit all the time. Example. Yesterday, I was playing Modern. My opponent was on Merfolk. On one turn, he tried to attack witha Cursecatcher he had just played. Do you think that he was trying to cheat? What if I tell you he forgot to attack with his Mutavault the very next turn and missed lethal because of that?
Just seeing the first one, a lot of people will think he tried to cheat. Looking only at his seond mistake, people will think he's an idiot. Watching both on camera? People will ignore the second one and call him out as a cheater. Have you ever played on camera and then gone back and watched it without thinking you played horribly?

I also don't see how likability had anything to do with what happened to Bertoncini. Someone noticed he did something odd once, went back and saw he repeatedly took illegal actions to his advantage. He came back, people were aware and paid closer attention.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Everybody does stupid shit all the time. Example. Yesterday, I was playing Modern.

Hahah!

[MGB]

What would Alex Bertoncini do in this situation?

[iamajellydonut]

What would Alex Bertoncini do in this situation?

Fetch two Ghost Quarters and draw a card.

[Lemnear]

Fetch two Ghost Quarters and draw a card.

nah, fetch a Strip Mine xD

[iamajellydonut]

nah, fetch a Strip Mine xD

We've always joked about doing something like this. If your record is like 1-5, just shuffle up powered MUD or throw Gush into a deck and be like "but, judge, I've been playing this all day with no problem!".

[MGB]

nah, fetch a Strip Mine xD

Cedric Phillips: "Alex suddenly putting Strip Mine into play off that fetch, boy, Patrick, we haven't seen that card in a long time! That really brings me back!"

Patrick Sulllivan: "Yeah, Cedric, I remember when I played my first Strip Mine in a tournament back in 1996. It was quite a busted card!"

Cedric Phillips: "Strip Mine one of those powerful cards that you don't often see much of anymore but SOMEHOW Alex has found a way to not only put it into his Modern deck, but into play as well, and now it looks like he is just going to blow up one of his opponent's basic Islands. Yes, that's right, BASIC Island. Get him!"

[T-101]

But it's big ol' likeable brad nelson, and he would never cheat in a game of magic ever. /s


If that was someone less well liked, e.g. Jim Davis or someone who had cheated in the past, the "pitchforks" would be out.

Well that's the thing. If you're likable, well-known, or seen as a positive force, you are allowed to get away with these things. Look at judges on reddit, "Oh I KNOW Brad, he'd NEVER do something like that. Clearly a mistake, all you sub-human non-judges calm down."

If, on the other hand, you're an unknown, playing AGAINST Brad, the judges are gonna watch you like a hawk.

[Lemnear]

Well that's the thing. If you're likable, well-known, or seen as a positive force, you are allowed to get away with these things. Look at judges on reddit, "Oh I KNOW Brad, he'd NEVER do something like that. Clearly a mistake, all you sub-human non-judges calm down."

If, on the other hand, you're an unknown, playing AGAINST Brad, the judges are gonna watch you like a hawk.

Do you expect anything different, if you are at the tables with a SCG Posterchild and a Judge payed by SCG at the same time? Isn't there an obvious conflict of interrests to foresee? Have you ever seen a Judge at an international sports match who's payed by one of the participating sports associations?

[Noctalor]

Do you expect anything different, if you are at the tables with a SCG Posterchild and a Judge payed by SCG at the same time? Isn't there an obvious conflict of interrests to foresee? Have you ever seen a Judge at an international sports match who's payed by one of the participating sports associations?

Looks like you are not into football

[iamajellydonut]

Do you expect anything different, if you are at the tables with a SCG Posterchild and a Judge payed by SCG at the same time? Isn't there an obvious conflict of interrests to foresee? Have you ever seen a Judge at an international sports match who's payed by one of the participating sports associations?

I don't think I've ever met a malicious or corrupt judge. Maybe I've gotten lucky, but to say that judges make calls based on allegiance is completely unfounded. Why should they? They're players. Do you honestly believe the stipend that SCG pays them is enough to buy their loyalty? Come to the US and see for yourself. Judges judge because they want to.

If there is anything to be said with regards to this matter, is more along the lines of what T-101 may or may not have meant. They may not be out to get you or out to help "Brad", but they do definitely sometimes profile the players and watch you instead of him. Damn does it feel bad when you get called out by the spectating judge for putting Green Sun's Zenith in your graveyard while your opponent casts a Jace through Gaddock Teeg under the same judge's nose.

(Edit: For the record, both were mistakes and neither action ended up mattering and he still won the match, but it's an example in support of a theory.)

[T-101]

It might be naive, but I do expect the occasional act integrity from the judges.

I mean take the Chapin incident from April. He failed to reveal from Ajani, and the judge ruled it like he should have; game loss for extra cards. It didn't matter that he's one of the most famous players in the game, it didn't matter that the card was a legal choice for Ajani's ability, he fucked up, and when you fuck up like that, the rules are crystal clear about what happens.

Switch away from the Pro Tour, and on to SCG's own private circuit, and the judges just gloss over crap like this on a weekly basis. Now, I like Brad. He's a cool dude, good videos, he plays cool decks. But when he fucks up, accidental or intentional, he should be treated like any other player.

@jellydonut: Many judges I've met are honest, and seem to try their best. But I have met several who are far from that. I'm happy to hear that you have almost all good judges around you, but that is not the case for some of us

[iamajellydonut]

Switch away from the Pro Tour, and on to SCG's own private circuit, and the judges can just gloss over crap like this on a weekly basis. Now, I like Brad. He's a cool dude, good videos, he plays cool decks. But when he fucks up, accidental or intentional, he should be treated like any other player.

Ignoring that Brad was appropriately hit posthumously with a GRV for his actions, I'd chalk a fair amount of this up to something related to confirmation bias. Sure you have the moments where Brad Nelson is able to sneak something like this past the judges, but you also have the moments where they're willing to hand someone in the (semi?)finals a game loss for slowplay.

[T-101]

I wasn't aware that he actually got an official GRV for that after the fact. +1 point to the judges for fixing that.

Again, I don't think this event is proof positive that Brad is an evil malicious cheater (still think he's an honest player), it's just good to see that the judges took the correct actions.

[ubernostrum]

Switch away from the Pro Tour, and on to SCG's own private circuit, and the judges just gloss over crap like this on a weekly basis.

I think a lot of the perception here comes from expectation that the judge at an on-camera feature match is there to constantly watch for and immediately notice and fix any problems. Which is not the case; the judge is there to be a resource to the players, and can intervene if the players ask or if the judge independently notices a problem, but there's no expectation for the judge to catch everything -- in fact, there's not even an expectation for the judge to catch most things, since the judge for the on-camera match at an Open is also doing multiple other things (primarily communicating information about the match to the coverage folks).

Once upon a time, in theory it was impossible to earn a penalty in an on-camera match because the judge was responsible for preventing or immediately fixing every error, but that approach was abandoned, thankfully, due to impossibility. For an idea of the problems it caused, have a look at the seminfinals of PT LA 2005. That link is to where the fun starts -- at 1:04:16 Moreno passes with mana floating, and notice the commentary of "You've got to stop, there's a table judge! In the top 8, the table judge prevents you from being able to do that!" Then it all goes to hell here, at 1: 12 :26, when Moreno starts to go off by cracking Cephalid Coliseum... and draws the three cards before anyone notices he didn't have threshold. The commentators are clearly angry, but the thing they're angry about is the fact that the table judge didn't prevent it from happening and that "it shouldn't be possible" to earn a Game Loss on camera (Moreno ended up getting a Warning after the video was consulted, something we also don't do anymore) and go into the philosophy at the time of why it wasn't supposed to be possible.

(random: I had drinks with the table judge from that match after GP Charlotte wrapped up last weekend, and he told the story -- including the fact that he'd just made L3 at that event, and a running joke afterward was whether they'd demote him right back to L2 because of that semifinal match)

[Lemnear]

I don't think I've ever met a malicious or corrupt judge. Maybe I've gotten lucky, but to say that judges make calls based on allegiance is completely unfounded. Why should they? They're players. Do you honestly believe the stipend that SCG pays them is enough to buy their loyalty? Come to the US and see for yourself. Judges judge because they want to.

I did. Long story short: You can't win against a judge and his playing buddy in a national championship.

[mort-]

I did. Long story short: You can't win against a judge and his playing buddy in a national championship.

Happend on two different occasions to friends of mine, too. So there are black sheep.

[Lemnear]

Happend on two different occasions to friends of mine, too. So there are black sheep.

There are. I just wanted to hint that conflict of interrests is something judges are susceptible to like everyone else